[NFP] POLL: Civilization: historical or fantasy game?

[Zaarin]

I would hardly call Haggard "modern".

1885 isn't exactly ancient.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

I hope so. I really liked the idea of secret societies and I hope they bring it back to Civ7, better worked and without vampires and things like that.

The way they made it I'm hoping similar things could easily be done for a corporation game mode with unique buildings and units depending on the type of corporation you make.
As for vampires, I don't mind them. I don't picture them as actual fantasy vampires anyway. I wanted Vlad Tepes for Civ and I always figured he might have "vampire" like abilities and I think this is the closest I'll get, at least for Civ 6.

 

[8housesofelixir]

I would hardly call Haggard "modern".

"Modern Literature" as a genre usually considered began in 19th century. But yes, "Victorian" is a better word to describe him and his works/fables.

 

[lotrmith]

Thanks; you answered this for me.

Vampires also traditionally are much easier to blend into historical settings than zombies or aliens. And in a game where we have leaders and governors who are literally immortal, and Great People who are not only immortal if unused but also flat-out unkillable, I don't have a problem with vampire units.

The premise of the game is already historical fantasy.. USA can exist in the ancient era and build the Hanging Gardens.

I'm totally okay with mythical/folklore items that aren't entirely fantasy but are instead based on real myths or pursuits. I'm good with El Dorado and Fountain of Youth, and the Holy Grail. The future stuff is also fine as that enters the hypothetical realm anyways.

Straight fantasy like vampires and zombies I am happy is limited to outside the base game mode.

 

[PhoenicianGold]

The premise of the game is already historical fantasy.. USA can exist in the ancient era and build the Hanging Gardens.

I'm totally okay with mythical/folklore items that aren't entirely fantasy but are instead based on real myths or pursuits. I'm good with El Dorado and Fountain of Youth, and the Holy Grail. The future stuff is also fine as that enters the hypothetical realm anyways.

Straight fantasy like vampires and zombies I am happy is limited to outside the base game mode.

I find that to be a totally arbitrary distinction.

El Dorado and the Fountain of Youth never actually existed.

Eastern European barons who believed in blood magic actually did exist.

This, to me, is tantamount to granting exceptions for Biblical figures and objects to be included as pseudo-historical, because those myths were integrated into the western historical narrative.

Just because certain fantasies have for one irrational reason or another been allowed to permeate history classes does not make them any more deserving of consideration than equally pervasive fantasies which were skipped over.

Put another way, just because the attractive, "virtuous" fantasies like El Dorado or the Holy Grail were obsessed over and propagated by the thronging, illiterate masses does not mean their "demonic" fantasies like vampires were lesser in any respect. If anything, both should be equally ridiculed now that "we know better now."

I think it is totally valid to not want fantasy in a historical game, but I don't think it's a particularly convincing opinion to hold when it is based in an ill-defined idea of what fantasy even is.

 

[OmegaDestroyer]

Man, give me Civ with mythological factions (Greek, Egyptian, Norse, etc... yeah, I took the examples fromAge of Mythology) and I will be a happy camper.

Sci-fi was handled well by WH 40k: Gladius. Don't have to worry about any of those pesky diplomacy, science, or cultural victories either. The AI was pretty ruthless too.

 

[lotrmith]

I find that to be a totally arbitrary distinction.

El Dorado and the Fountain of Youth never actually existed.

Eastern European barons who believed in blood magic actually did exist.

This, to me, is tantamount to granting exceptions for Biblical figures and objects to be included as pseudo-historical, because those myths were integrated into the western historical narrative.

Just because certain fantasies have for one irrational reason or another been allowed to permeate history classes does not make them any more deserving of consideration than equally pervasive fantasies which were skipped over.

Put another way, just because the attractive, "virtuous" fantasies like El Dorado or the Holy Grail were obsessed over and propagated by the thronging, illiterate masses does not mean their "demonic" fantasies like vampires were lesser in any respect. If anything, both should be equally ridiculed now that "we know better now."

I think it is totally valid to not want fantasy in a historical game, but I don't think it's a particularly convincing opinion to hold when it is based in an ill-defined idea of what fantasy even is.

That's a reasonable opinion but the line is drawn somewhere. As I said, the game itself is fantastical in nature. Others have mentioned and I think this is apt to apply to my passes for wonders and relics, as the don't mechanically change the game or your strategies... They're just names. Pick a gold rich location and a soothing volcanic hotspring on real Earth and you've got the same thing. The Holy Grail may as well be real, had anyone claimed to have it then the faith and tourism draw would be the same in real life as they are for many other claimed relics that in all likelihood aren't real.

Vampires in the secret society, however, is part of a big new mechanism, so I'm glad it's relegated to a separate game mode.

 

[Kupe Navigator]

an, give me Civ with mythological factions (Greek, Egyptian, Norse, etc... yeah, I took the examples fromAge of Mythology)

but all of them are in Civ 6? ( yeah norse is represented by Norway but still) I don't get what you mean by mythological factions.

 

[Zaarin]

but all of them are in Civ 6? ( yeah norse is represented by Norway but still) I don't get what you mean by mythological factions.

A spinoff where the factions are led by gods and heroes and have mythical unique units like minotaurs, sphinxes, or qilin--like Age of Mythology but for Civ.

 

[Kupe Navigator]

A spinoff where the factions are led by gods and heroes and have mythical unique units like minotaurs, sphinxes, or qilin--like Age of Mythology but for Civ.

THAT.... I would actually love to see. Greek lead by Zeus?

 

[Greywulf]

Why hate on little mythological things?
You don't have to play secret society you know. Devs said it is OPTIONAL thing

I don't necessarily hate mythology, but specific things I do hate. Vampires are disgusting cannibals, so I hate that concept entirely.

Good to know it will be optional though, that does make me feel better! Thank you for telling me that.

Secret Societies are part of the Ethiopia Pack. So if you want to play Ethiopia, you'll have to pay for Secret Societies.

That being said: we don't know the price of the Ethiopia Pack but we can assume it will be the price of a a standard Civ DLC. What you'll pay in this pack would be the leader animation and the civilization. The rest, modders can do it and it probably won't be the main driver of the price. Maybe 10%: no great artwork (maybe for the vampire castle and vampire unit, but cultists are just missionaries with a hood, the Alchemical Society and Gilded Vault are just reskins of the University and the Bank) and the mechanics, again, is probably something that won't have cost too much. So even if you wanted to only buy Ethiopia and the DQ, you'd save about 10% of the price. Is it worthy of such a complain?

Also, each time we had DLC with scenarios in it (I play zero scenarios, except Black Death because it interested me), but I had to pay for them. Nobody's complaining about that, right? I'm forced to buy scenarios in which I have zero interests... where's my money? Why people are "rightfully" complaining about SS but when it's other mechanics nobody's complaining?

There's certainly other things to complain about, but vampires is fresh on my mind being it's a brand new feature ~ and I particularly hate the concept of vampires.

That's annoying that it's part of the Ethiopia pack..

Secret Societies does come in the Ethiopia pack so if you want Ethiopia you have to buy it.
You don't ever have to play with Secret Societies on though if you don't want to.
I don't find it to be a big deal considering everybody already has aliens and zombies in your game at this point, even though it's in a separate scenario.

My main concern was that I wouldn't want it to be core game. Thankfully, as I'm told, it's entirely optional.

And yes, I hate zombies too...For starters, they have been "done to death", but it's also a disgusting concept to me. I understand that zombies are supposed to be already "dead" (like that makes any sense), but I also really don't like the set up that most zombie movies/games have, as to me it's a bit like having dehumanized sick people lining up to be massacred; not exactly what I would call appealing.

THAT.... I would actually love to see. Greek lead by Zeus?

If they do something decent for the AI and diplomacy, then as far as I'm concerned, they can go nuts with independent scenarios. I'd be so overjoyed if they actually do something with barbarians, for once!

 

[Kupe Navigator]

If they do something decent for the AI and diplomacy, then as far as I'm concerned, they can go nuts with independent scenarios. I'd be so overjoyed if they actually do something with barbarians, for once!

modes are basically independent scenarios. I don't know what your problem with it.

 

[Greywulf]

modes are basically independent scenarios. I don't know what your problem with it.

Feels a bit too close to core game to me, but I wouldn't even like to see vampires in independent scenarios anyway.

 

[Kupe Navigator]

Feels a bit too close to core game to me, but I wouldn't even like to see vampires in independent scenarios anyway.

but vampires were part of culture. Sure it isn't "real" but vampire like people and society were there. Maybe the vampire unite is like that. not the actually " blood-sucking vampires" but just dark and broody soilder who is VERY cruel and bloodthirsty.

 

[Greywulf]

but vampires were part of culture. Sure it isn't "real" but vampire like people and society were there. Maybe the vampire unite is like that. not the actually " blood-sucking vampires" but just dark and broody soilder who is VERY cruel and bloodthirsty.

UFOs, dragons, green people, and fairies are all part of culture too, so are we denying culture by not including everything else? Because same rule applies for the rest.

I don't think pretending that a vampire unit is different from other vampires is going to help either...And why are we assuming that a vampire doesn't drink blood, when the most classical feature of vampires is their cannibalistic desires/practices?

 

[Kupe Navigator]

UFOs, dragons, green people, and fairies are all part of culture too

yeah and give me real life examples of UFO, dragons, green people and faires.

I don't think pretending that a vampire unit is different from other vampires is going to help either...And why are we assuming that a vampire doesn't drink blood, when the most classical feature of vampires is their cannibalistic desires/practices?

not different just that they are not actually a vampire but rather just called that because it is just awesome name.
Maybe these units are people who practice Vampire lifestyle really hard like here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vampire_lifestyle

. Vampires are disgusting cannibals, so I hate that concept entirely.

cannibalism was real. Sure it is disgusting but just because it is disgusting doesn't mean it should not be part of history. A lot of wars are disgusting but can you say wars are not part of history? Cannibalism often came out during or as a result of the war.

Also not all Vampires are cannibals. Heck even Vald the impaler wasn't a cannibals. He was cruel to his enemies by impaling them on a stick sure. But no where in historical/legendary accounts did they say he ate people

 

[Greywulf]

yeah and give me real life examples of UFO, dragons, green people and faires.

Give me real life examples of actual vampires, not just people pretending to be vampires.

not different just that they are not actually a vampire but rather just called that because it is just awesome name.
Maybe these units are people who practice Vampire lifestyle really hard like here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vampire_lifestyle

Well it takes all kinds, I guess. Still, really not my thing.[/QUOTE]

 

[Kupe Navigator]

I just don't think it is fair to dismiss this mode just because it has "vampires" in it. That is very petty.

 

[Greywulf]

cannibalism was real. Sure it is disgusting but just because it is disgusting doesn't mean it should not be part of history. A lot of wars are disgusting but can you say wars are not part of history? Cannibalism often came out during or as a result of the war.

Also not all Vampires are cannibals. Heck even Vald the impaler wasn't a cannibals. He was cruel to his enemies by impaling them on a stick sure. But no where in historical/legendary accounts did they say he ate people

There's merit to the argument that if something really was part of history, it should be part of a historical game, but then again, this is just that, a game. Aside from how impossible it would be to include absolutely everything from history, there's really no need for it. End of the day it's about having fun, and the less enjoyable parts of history might take away from that - or at least would increase the game's rating, which would narrow the audience. I want to play a game about history, but have no interest in seeing cannibalism added as a feature, regardless of how historical it is.

Vlad the Impaler wasn't a vampire, though. He may play an influential role in what vampires mean today, but he was a real historical person who was more known for how incredibly brutal he was with his own citizens.

I just don't think it is fair to dismiss this mode just because it has "vampires" in it. That is very petty.

I just want it to be separate DLC so I personally don't have to buy it in order to get other content (i.e. Ethiopia).

 

[Kupe Navigator]

I just want it to be separate DLC so I personally don't have to buy it in order to get other content (i.e. Ethiopia).

and people who do want it have to pay extra? That is not fair to people who like this sort of thing.
Look it's like this: In a restaurant, you get a meal and as a free bonus they gave you a free tomato. There are people who like tomato so they receive it happly but you hate it and complain that you don't want to pay for tomato and demand that they sell it separately.