Poll: Freedom Tree Adjustments

[Stalker0]

So after a lengthy discussion here: 4/14 Patch - Freedom | CivFanatics Forums

We are ready to present some changes to the Freedom Tree. I have provided a mult-part poll, you are welcome to vote on each piece of the proposal. So if you like some changes and not others, you can note that in the poll. If you would like more context as to why changes are being proposed, again I recommend reviewing the original discussion thread.

In the poll, a Yes is a vote to change to this proposal, a No is to leave the tenant as it currently is.

I have noted the changes in bold.

• Civil Society (T1): Removed (merged with Urbanization).
  Urbanization (T1): Farms, Camps, Plantations, and Unique Improvements gain +4 . Specialists require 2 less (minimum 1)

• Universal Suffrage (T2) moved to Tier 1 (no change in actual tenant).

• New Deal (T2): Landmarks and GPTI gain +6 to the appropriate yield, and +2 tourism.

• Their Finest Hour (T2): Cities gain +33% CS and 1 additional air slot. Can use B17 bombers.

• Transnationalism (T2): Every owned Town counts as a Franchise. Each turn, increase the chance that a corporation will appear in a foreign city to 15% (normally 5%). Global Franchise maximum increases by 25%. +2 from corporation offices.

• Self-Determination (completely new T2, the replacement for Civil Society): Liberating a city for the first time gives 15 XP to all units, 50 Influence with all City-States, and 40, scaling by era and city population. The liberated city gains an Arsenal, 6 Partisan units, and is healed to full.

Since Self-Determination is brand new, I thought I would give a little more detail here. Currently AIs are very aggressive at capturing CS, and a Tall freedom player wanting to go DV often doesn't have the tools to counter that play. This tenant now gives a DV focused Freedom player solid rewards in liberating these cities (aka spreading freedom!). They get a nice influence bonus, they get an XP bonus that helps them counter the larger armies of Autocracy, and they get a bit of science (which utilizes the same formula as Authority's imperialism).

The other issue with liberating cities is that this late in the game, without a good army and proper defensive buildings, a liberated city is a complete sitting duck for any nearby force that wants to take them. This means a player must commit a sizable military force to defend the city. The other part of Self Determination takes some of that burden off by giving the city an Arsenal and full HP....allowing it to take some hits, and a new instant army, which helps augment the city defense and gives it a chance to rebuild infrastructure. We choose partisans for the units, that way they can be land or sea (depending on city location) and they automatically scale with the tech of the world. Indeed, the very name Self Determination, implies the desire to let the city stand on its own, without completely depending on your military forces for protection.

Note that the bonuses only occur the first time the city is liberated, to prevent tons of yields from ping ponging the city back and forth. This works exactly as all of the various conquest bonuses work.

 

[InkAxis]

Self Determination is very good, it allows you to defend yourself and is very thematic.

But, I want to clarify some of the things that I made for Self Determination.
Here's what I would make it:

• Liberating a city for the first time gives 15 XP to all units, 50 Influence with all City-States, and 40, scaling by era and city population. The liberated city gains an Arsenal and 6 units.

I really don't understand why people keep on saying "Partisan" units, I mean they are just units. I think it comes from a misconception about how DLL code works. I've heard several times, oh XYZ is implemented in the DLL so just make it use that code. IIf it's already implemented in the DLL that only really means 1 thing: that it is feasible to code. And probably not too difficult, but no guarantees. It doesn't necessarily mean it's "piggybacking" or whatever that even means.
Why call them Partisans, it will just confuse players because they are just normal units.

that way they can be land or sea

Should it be boats as well? Note that they will all be the same unit. Minor civs will automatically already get 1 land, non-ranged, no strategic resource cost, non-UU unit after liberation. This is very similar, though I allowed it to be a UU of the liberated civ. I was thinking if they were all sea it could cause issues, and, partisans don't spawn as boats. I think in almost any circumstance an army would be better than a navy.

• Their Finest Hour (T2): Cities gain +33% CS and 1 additional air slot. Can use B17 bombers.

• Transnationalism (T2): Every owned Town counts as a Franchise. Each turn, increase the chance that a corporation will appear in a foreign city to 15% (normally 5%). Global Franchise maximum increases by 25%. +2 from corporation offices.

These two would need new code, though feasible and maybe not too difficult.

 

[Solic]

Add that freedom wonder should give 1 WC vote per 1 declaration of friendship instead of 2 dof as is the case now?

 

[Gizmoman]

Civil Society (T1): Removed (merged with Urbanization). Urbanization (T1): Farms, Camps, Plantations, and Unique Improvements gain +4 . Specialists require 2 less (minimum 1

Why do you want to remove this one?

 

[pineappledan]

Civil Society (T1): Removed (merged with Urbanization). Urbanization (T1): Farms, Camps, Plantations, and Unique Improvements gain +4 . Specialists require 2 less (minimum 1)

These should be separate lines, it's confusing.

Combining Civil Society and Urbanization seems like the most necessary change in this whole proposal. That of course means we would need a new tenet. I think that when they are combined, Urbanization is strong enough that it could be a T2, in which case Self-Determination, or whatever else is proposed for the hole could be a T1.

 

[InkAxis]

Talking on github and discord, is the fact that the yields are only received the first time you liberate the city really necessary?
I don't think it would be that common that you would liberate the same city twice for the yields. I mean, it would have 6 units and an arsenal, that's a surprising amount. In my testing a lot of the time that was more units than they could fit in their territory. The situation would have to be that the aggressor was so weak they lost a city, but then so strong that they reconquered it even though it had 6-7 units and an arsenal.
Additionally, the current implementation isn't perfect either:
For example, if you liberate the city a city without the policy, then liberate it with the policy, you won't get the yields as that's the second time you've liberated it. That's a corner case, but I think that it is a little frustrating as that means if you *ever* liberated a city the entire game, the yields are gone.
Now, we could make it so that it only counts if you got the yields. But in that case we would need to add more memory consuming things to solve an issue that isn't really an issue?

Overall:

• No checks, always get yields for liberating
  • Simplest to understand, no weird things with not getting yields
  • No new memory
  • Possible exploits? Though the city is well defended
• Only get it if you've never liberated the city
  • Stops theoretical ping pong
  • edit: no new memory
    
  • If you have ever liberated the city before, no yields
• Only get it if you've never liberated the city and gotten the yields
  • Stops ping pong, most ideal as no exploits and still gain yields always
  • More new memory

I think at least to start, we can have no checks. If there are a lot of exploits, we can adjust from there, but I don't think it will be an issue.
There's also the question that, if you do only get the yields once, does the liberated CS get the units and the arsenal? I assumed yes, as they still need defense, but Recursive brought up that it could also be exploited.

 

[pineappledan]

If you liberate a CS, they also get the era defense on minors and 2 era-appropriate free units, right? So that’s 8 units total, and they get those 2 units every time they are liberated

so in a sense this new policy supercharges the freebies liberated CS already get, so I think it should just behave the way the existing liberation freebies do: every time.

in the end, this is corner cases on corner cases. What fraction of games do players take freedom, and this specific policy, and then manage to free the same city more than once, after another civ overcame their free extra defences?

 

[vetox20]

I particularly like Self-Determination. It definitely vibes well with Freedom and for me, gives me an added objective of trying to free as many CS as possible when fighting against Autocratic forces. Nothing feels better than spreading a bunch of Freedom and liberation

 

[Stalker0]

I'm fine trying it out with the bonuses allowed every time, and then see if I can exploit it in the beta.

 

[Floats your boat]

Honestly, I think neither of those changes are enough. Freedom is extremely weak for tourism for example and it would still be. Actually I would only consider going freedom for peaceful tall science victory and pilling food bonuses to work all scientist and merchants, in synergy with rationalism, golden ages, and buying spaceship parts. I will think about what to propose but I think we need % tourism modifiers and probably more science to the tree.

What about this: Cities produce 20% more science and tourism while in golden age. All specialists produce +2 tourism?

Transnationalism (T2): Every owned Town counts as a Franchise. Each turn, increase the chance that a corporation will appear in a foreign city to 15% (normally 5%). Global Franchise maximum increases by 25%. +2 from corporation offices.

I consider it very weak. You normally don't plant towns as they are weak, I don't do it even with +4 science and faith reformation. WLTKD for unobtainable resources and raw gold is so much better, and merchants have low priority anyway.

New Deal (T2): Landmarks and GPTI gain +6 to the appropriate yield, and +2 tourism.

Again, how does it even compare to +50% and +25% more tourism to foreign civs order gets. Tourism from terrain is actually worthless. I recently had 1100 tourism in my capital and working another tile with +2 tourism (Venetian village), gained me 1104. I don't remember if it being GPTI changes anything, correct me if I am wrong.

 

[Gizmoman]

I consider it very weak. You normally don't plant towns as they are weak, I don't do it even with +4 science and faith reformation. WLTKD for unobtainable resources and raw gold is so much better, and merchants have low priority anyway.

What do you use your great merchants for in that case? Without any towns the WLTKD boost is like 8 turns?

I'll agree that during the first part of the game, the town is pretty mediocre, but if you place it on a trade-route it's not awful, and when you get the first food boost to it it's downright decent.

 

[Stalker0]

Honestly, I think neither of those changes are enough. Freedom is extremely weak for tourism for example and it would still be. Actually I would only consider going freedom for peaceful tall science victory and pilling food bonuses to work all scientist and merchants, in synergy with rationalism, golden ages, and buying spaceship parts. I will think about what to propose but I think we need % tourism modifiers and probably more science to the tree.

What about this: Cities produce 20% more science and tourism while in golden age. All specialists produce +2 tourism?


I consider it very weak. You normally don't plant towns as they are weak, I don't do it even with +4 science and faith reformation. WLTKD for unobtainable resources and raw gold is so much better, and merchants have low priority anyway.

Again, how does it even compare to +50% and +25% more tourism to foreign civs order gets. Tourism from terrain is actually worthless. I recently had 1100 tourism in my capital and working another tile with +2 tourism (Venetian village), gained me 1104. I don't remember if it being GPTI changes anything, correct me if I am wrong.

Freedom does get a +25% tourism in its tier 3, so the New deal bonuses would get further magnified by that.

We debated ideas for a month and a half in the previous thread so I don’t want to open up more ideas for this poll. My recommendation is, if you think an idea is moving us in the wrong direction, than cite no in the poll. If you think an idea is good but not strong enough, than vote yes and then bring up additional ideas into the original thread (or start a new one as a “reset”).

 

[Stalker0]

What do you use your great merchants for in that case? Without any towns the WLTKD boost is like 8 turns?

I'll agree that during the first part of the game, the town is pretty mediocre, but if you place it on a trade-route it's not awful, and when you get the first food boost to it it's downright decent.

Also the town was boosted recently, it is a really good pile of gold early on now

 

[Gizmoman]

Also the town was boosted recently, it is a really good pile of gold early on now

They're decent for food and hammers and good for gold. Really not a bad tile to work. Even if you can't motive dropping it by your capital, some city is going to want the extra gold for reduced poverty.

 

[Floats your boat]

What do you use your great merchants for in that case? Without any towns the WLTKD boost is like 8 turns?

It doesn't matter what duration it does, what does is that it resets the resources that are unobtainable that would normally block your WLTKD sometimes forever. And gold for investing in wonders or other crucial buildings. Tradition lacks gold mid-game. And I mean real cash for investment, 500-800 gold from bulbing a merchant, not +8 or +10 gpt from town in renaissance.

Freedom does get a +25% tourism in its tier 3, so the New deal bonuses would get further magnified by that.

And it is vastly inferior to Order that has about +66% tourism in tier 2, so much faster and also have much better other tenets. Also freedom boost is blocked by tech and a building. Furthermore the golden age tenets are most of time redundant if you have some wonders/to the glory of god/artistry/fealty, and you will have them if you know how to play tradition. In most games I cannot see freedom as worth taking for tourism victory, order will do tourism faster, give you much better production and happiness, and if you fail at tourism somehow, you will be open for science still.

I agree about merging civil society and urbanization especially and basically with any buffs to freedom, so I vote yes to all, but even if all are implemented freedom would be no go for me in most games. It is not the direction I think this tree needs. It doesn't help you win faster in any way and freedom is already behind both order and autocracy IMO.

 

[InkAxis]

Want to bump this thread in case there are any more responses. But it seems to be decidedly yes on all the changes.

I've also added code for the Transnationalism buff, though it isn't used yet.

It's been over a week since the poll so I think we can add the changes soon?

 

[pineappledan]

I've also added code for the Transnationalism buff, though it isn't used yet.

@InkAxis how does it work? Does it count all the Improvements you have built, or does it count all the improvements you own? In other words, do you only get franchises for Towns constructed, or towns in your territory?

Sidebar, This seems like an awesome addition to Order, adding a Franchise to each Manufactory on empire. Since Nationalization was changed from 2 Franchises to 1 Franchise per city, it's felt borderline unusable on smaller empires, but I agree with the sentiment that it was too strong at 2 per city. Adding Franchises for Manufactories seems like a great way to pad that belief out a bit.

 

[Stalker0]

@InkAxis
Sidebar, This seems like an awesome addition to Order, adding a Franchise to each Manufactory on empire. Since Nationalization was changed from 2 Franchises to 1 Franchise per city, it's felt borderline unusable on smaller empires, but I agree with the sentiment that it was too strong at 2 per city. Adding Franchises for Manufactories seems like a great way to pad that belief out a bit.

an interesting topic, but i agree such a sidebar I think it’s better discussed in general balance as a new topic. Let’s not mix in order discussions in a purely freedom based thread

 

[InkAxis]

@InkAxis how does it work? Does it count all the Improvements you have built, or does it count all the improvements you own? In other words, do you only get franchises for Towns constructed, or towns in your territory?

All the improvements you own. But it can be easily changed to only ones you've built.

 

[Floats your boat]

I would like to throw in an idea. Since food and gold are important and strong yields later in the game for progress and tradition, but you usually have a lot of farms and internal trade routes to cover food. What if three food from farms and unique improvements was changed to three gold. Food needs are usually covered by less requiring specialists tenet. Freedom lacks any solid gold tenet, while it requires a lot of gold to take advantage of its strongest features like buying units with full experience, buying a lot of diplomats and most importantly investing in spaceship parts.

Last game I got whopping six gold for adopting economic union. Internal trade routes are usually better for any part of the game while building maintenance amounts to astronomical figures, I habitually have it on 600 to 700, while not building most of modern and later eras buildings. Plus one gold from specialists and two trade routes are a joke by this point of a game. Even Industry finisher gives you 2 gold and production on every specialist. I would like to see that considerably buffed. Freedom is supposed to be representative of globalist, corporationist capitalism while it gives much less gold than communist order in its reductions of investment and building maintenance.