Poll: How balanced is the Progress tree compared to other Ancient Trees?

[Stalker0]

Of late, we periodically have a person here and there worried about the strength of the progress tree. Before we go into another deep discussion on it, the goal here is to assess if the community agrees there's an issue.

Note that this is a strength balance poll, we are not assessing the flavor of the tree, just determining if Progress is performing well in its niche compared to the other options.

Obviously the trees are not balanced in every single scenario or with every civ. Balanced in this case is you would consider Progress a reasonably amount of the time, overpowered is you use progress "too often" even in places you think it should be bad at, and underpowered is you rarely choose Progress even in situations you think you should use it.


UPDATE: Here are the results of the poll.

So with about 65 responses that gives us a margin of error of ~12%. So from that, we can conclude:

• A majority of people do not think Progress is overpowered.
• We cannot determine if people think Progress is fine or underpowered. The results are too close within the margin of error to say either way.

 

[looorg]

It depends on what you want to do. If you want to do early war stuff and slaughter raging barbarians then it's naturally going to be highly inferior to Authority. But if you just want to do balanced stuff and grow I find it to be the superior tree. If I don't have a solid early plan based on starting locations etc that will require Authority or Tradition specific then I always go progress. Come to think of it I don't even remember last time I picked a tradition starter. There just isn't anything there worthwhile I would want. Progress have just become my go to tree if I don't want to do Authority stuff.

It is far superior to Tradition and some what not quite there compared to Authority, but for authority to shine it requires stuff to kill. If you don't have that then the whole point to Authority goes down the tubes.

The path is always the same, one left side for the +3 hammers, unlock the worker (first right), +food/science (second row to the right), the first second row for building speed and finish with the happiness one. I don't even know the names of the things anymore, just their locations.

(edit: comments only valid for marathon speed deity games, i have no input at other speeds or difficulty levels)

 

[Milae]

It's now probably the best tree to pick on Deity as it gives the best early game in most cases.

It may not be as good on lower difficulties as you can't snowball as hard with it as Authority and Tradition.

 

[DeAnno]

I think that both Progress and Tradition suffer on higher difficulties particularly for inland starts, where you can't set up an easily controlled border (obviously this is only really ever a thing on a Pangaea-like map.) In the opposite case, Authority doesn't really suffer on the coast, where I think all three trees are roughly equal.

With the recent change to Organization I think Progress competes with Tradition a lot better, though I think both of them could use a small buff or Authority a small nerf.

 

[ridjack]

I'm slightly more concerned about Tradition than Progress, to be completely honest, for a couple of reasons. For one, you basically cannot take Tradition if you have even just one mildly uppity neighbor. Sure, the capital can pump out enough defenders to weather the inevitable assault, but it sets your infrastructure back so far that you're basically already irrelevant. Progress and Authority can both hold their own under the same conditions and come out just fine.

The bigger issue to me is that Tradition's start just seems so rough in general. You're basically limping along and depending on one city to do everything while the satellite cities try to get basic infrastructure up so they can at least produce units in less than thirty turns.

But back on topic, I think Progress is fine. It actually scales best into the mid- and late-game IMHO; the yields still feel impactful where Tradition's benefits are less visible and more long-term, and Authority's get less consistent as borders stop growing and conquests take longer.

 

[stii]

It's now probably the best tree to pick on Deity as it gives the best early game in most cases.

It may not be as good on lower difficulties as you can't snowball as hard with it as Authority and Tradition.

I really don't think this is true. It just doesn't help enough in the hardest games. Tradition and authority have defensive bonuses and without them. Progress just seems win more in the easier games you might have more than other trees but you'd still win with tradition. But you are much more likely to die with progress.

 

[greenfieldpark]

Weird. I am thus far the only one to vote that progress is superior to the other when commentors seem to be saying the same thing.

Its currently my go to.

I find authority just too hard to make the bonuses work. You have to field a large army that is bullying cs and killing barbs/camps. This army is expensive and because its in the field you arnt getting the policies bonus for having troops stationed in cities.

Also since you are spread across the map if a civ declares war on you, you have to scramble back to defend. If you manage to make it back in time you are now not getting barb and cs bullying bonuses.

Tradition is decent but imo cant compete with progress.

Progress gets you more workers quicker. these workers are more efficient and get your cities prod up quicker. You then get a ton of growth and science. It does however suffer pretty bad from culture.

Id only choose tradition over progress if my land area is smaller and more contested. Both because tradition does offer more city defense and because less cities obv mean less progress bonuses.

Im playing on quick speed diety.

 

[Histomen]

Okay so in higher difficulties, the bonuses from progress on the AI are ridiculous. I would go as far as saying it gives much more yields then other trees when the AI use it. No real proof mostly a feeling by the huge policy and tech leads the AI will have compared to me running progress in the same games. However if we're just looking at rates between players the all are in great spots. The only outlier being authority that has like 7 barb camps around it getting yields like no tomorrow.

 

[Kevun1]

I think the policies are balanced right now.

The way Tradition vs. Progress balance works right now is this (on standard Diety):

• On adoption, on around turns 20-40, Tradition is initially much stronger than Progress because the extra 2 pop and culture gives you a big boost. It can guarantee you Stonehenge/Pyramids and allows you to build your first 1-2 settlers much faster.
• Progress is stronger around turns 50-120, as the middle policies are better than Tradition's middle policies usually. You can expand quicker due to settler production in your other cities, you have way more /, and more to get early techs.
• As you complete the trees, usually around turns 100-120, Tradition starts to pull ahead again as Tradition's best policies are towards the end, and its finisher is very strong. The boost in culture with the +2 to monuments/baths/gardens and the 10% capital yields is very powerful. Combined with the boost to golden ages, great people, and University of Sankore, Tradition scales much better, and eventually beats Progress in both culture and science.

So the choice really depends on your situation and when you need the power spike.

It's hard to compare progress vs. authority, because authority's strength is highly variable. It greatly depends on your positioning with regards to barb camp locations/other civs, and Authority is also much better on Epic/Marathon than on Standard. But generally, Progress has a lot better science than Authority so I don't think Progress is weaker. Progress is also completely fine for war, because the extra science means you can get key military techs faster, and progress gives enough for unit production. Authority generally does end up better than progress as time goes on, just like Tradition, because the combat bonuses are good independent of era and the yields on unit kills scale as the game goes on, while Progress's +3 is constant.

The only real weakness of Progress is that it scales the weakest compared to Tradition/Authority (the great writers is a big exception, but I find that To the Glory of God is the go-to reformation belief anyway), but I think the early-mid game boost more than makes up for that.

 

[Kim Dong Un]

There's lot's of different variables, and I can't speak for how competitive the policies are at the two highest difficulties, but I'll say this: In a vacuum, I'm probably taking progress if I had to win a game. Regarding the other two openers, Authority could possibly stand to have a smidge of production shaved off and shifted over, to allow Tradition satellites to not be so hammer deprived. Or just leave Authority as is, and incorporate another hammer or two for Trad satellites somewhere in the tree.

I personally would like to see something cool involving Trad satellites having their local production boosted by a certain % depending on how much production the capital generates, simulating a trickle effect of productivity stemming from a central hub.

 

[SolutionIt]

Well my opinion was already expressed on the Discord. Six votes total including mine for underpowered. I think I was the catalyst for the +3 prod over +2 prod on organization, but i haven't tried that change with the new tree anyway. I think the general design goals of Progress are handled well anyway, the issue I find with it is that is isn't that straightforward by design. Can't go wide immediately with it due to road maintenance costs and tile construction rates for road taking away potential yields for it. I think most players including myself thought it was designed for wide play.

I think the consensus is likely going to be it isn't underpowered, but more than likely it isn't straightforward or as malleable as it ought to be? Kind of hard to say what the real goal of progress should be since it tries to do everything but doesn't particularly excel. Thats how I see it.

Authority is definitely kind of a sore thumb in base VP though. As I stated not a lot of good reasons to not go tribute -> imperium over the dominance route and the flat hammers and ability to find and kill encampments easier lets it build infrastructure pretty reliably.

 

[Grassland Farm]

Progress looks good on paper but always feel terrible when I'm playing it. Might be that I try too hard to go wide.

 

[Dimmy]

Became my least favorite. almost never pick it up.

 

[andersw]

Its strong in AI hands because of found city bonus but weak in human hands.

 

[mad hadder]

Became my least favorite. almost never pick it up.

Agreed, it honestly feels as though Authority is better at going peaceful wide than Progress.

 

[Coffee Shop]

On the rare occasion that I do choose progress, I still go with the authority opener for my first policy.

 

[FishAvenger]

If I can survive the Classical era, Progress performs fine. But right now it feels a little too "squishy," and if I try to expand early to take advantages of wide bonuses or to forward settle opponents, I stretch my military too thin to properly defend myself.

As it stands, Progress is the only ancient tree without any military bonuses. Authority already boosts combat strength/supply, and Tradition boosts city strength. I think something like "all land units starting their turn in/adjacent to a friendly city heal +2 additional HP per turn" would both be unique and provide the small nudge needed to make a progress army viable for defense during the Classical era. It could make sense to substitute this policy in place of Equality, keeping the +1 flat happiness per city and moving the population/percent based happiness bonuses to the finisher, as these don't generally become relevant until later anyway.

 

[ridjack]

If I can survive the Classical era, Progress performs fine. But right now it feels a little too "squishy," and if I try to expand early to take advantages of wide bonuses or to forward settle opponents, I stretch my military too thin to properly defend myself.

As it stands, Progress is the only ancient tree without any military bonuses. Authority already boosts combat strength/supply, and Tradition boosts city strength. I think something like "all land units starting their turn in/adjacent to a friendly city heal +2 additional HP per turn" would both be unique and provide the small nudge needed to make a progress army viable for defense during the Classical era. It could make sense to substitute this policy in place of Equality, keeping the +1 flat happiness per city and moving the population/percent based happiness bonuses to the finisher, as these don't generally become relevant until later anyway.

Man, my experience could not be more opposite if I tried. Progress is the only time I've never worried about rowdy neighbors; Tradition's focus on the capital and low unit supply make it super vulnerable, and Authority always has an early game happiness and gold slump that leaves me economically vulnerable if I have to defend myself instead of going on the offensive. Progress single-handedly keeps my economy afloat whether I'm on the offensive, defensive or turtling down on an isolated island. I don't need direct military bonuses with Progress.

And for the love all that is holy, PLEASE don't touch Equality. That policy is amazing for getting to ignore happiness long enough to expand, or pump out a reasonable army.

Progress is fine, y'all. The fact that there is absolutely no consensus in this thread (aside from maybe that Authority is a bit too strong) suggests to me that the Ancient Era policy trees in general are in a solid spot.

 

[Zuizgond]

What I don't understand is why only very few AI go progress (Assyria, Carthage, Indonesia, Russia (sometimes), China (sometimes)). How is this decided?

Note : I always set PolicyNumOptionsConsidered to 1 for AI which should make them always choose the best option.

 

[Grassland Farm]

What I don't understand is why only very few AI go progress (Assyria, Carthage, Indonesia, Russia (sometimes), China (sometimes)). How is this decided?

Note : I always set PolicyNumOptionsConsidered to 1 for AI which should make them always choose the best option.

Opposite for me, they love Progress. I even had a Progress genghis in my last game.
In one game legit ALL PLAYERS WERE PROGRESS. (8 of them)