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Poll: How is the strength of each Great Person (GPTI Ability)?

Discussion in 'Community Patch Project' started by Stalker0, Apr 12, 2021.

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How is the strength of each great person (GPTI ability)?

Poll closed May 3, 2021.
  1. Scientist - Good

    82.9%
  2. Scientist - Needs Adjustment

    11.4%
  3. Merchant - Good

    20.0%
  4. Merchant - Needs Adjustment

    80.0%
  5. Engineer - Good

    80.0%
  6. Engineer - Needs Adjustment

    20.0%
  7. Diplomat - Good

    77.1%
  8. Diplomat - Needs Adjustment

    14.3%
  9. Writer - Good

    85.7%
  10. Writer - Needs Adjustment

    5.7%
  11. Artist - Good

    82.9%
  12. Artist - Needs Adjustment

    8.6%
  13. Musician - Good

    71.4%
  14. Musician - Needs Adjustment

    20.0%
  15. General - Good

    68.6%
  16. General - Needs Adjustment

    28.6%
  17. Admiral - Good

    62.9%
  18. Admiral - Needs Adjustment

    28.6%
  19. Prophet - Good

    77.1%
  20. Prophet - Needs Adjustment

    14.3%
Multiple votes are allowed.
  1. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    Just doing a generic checkup on how people see the various great people. Is the GP fine or does it needs some number adjustment?

    For this poll, we are looking at the GPTI ability of the Great Person.

    Scientist - Academy
    Merchant - Town
    Engineer - Manufactory
    Diplomat - Embassy
    Writer - Great Work
    Aritst - Great Work
    Musician - Great Work
    General - Citadel
    Admiral - Combat Heal / Gain luxuries
    Prophet - Holy Site


    Adjustment means a simple number change, if you think conceptually the GP needs adjustment that will go in teh comments.
     
  2. youngsteve

    youngsteve Prince

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    Sorry, when I originally wrote a comment in the other thread this one wasn't around. My comment about the Great General being overpowered was not due to their assistance to units fighting ability which is good, but to the putting down of Citadels, which is ludicrously overpowered. I can understand why many have probably got an opposite view of this, because as a tool to warmongering it is really impressive but for reality & a more peaceful game it is not.

    In reality if a country stole land from another (which is basically what happens here) there would be uproar around the world & some sort of action, whether military or diplomacy would go against any perpetrators, which is the opposite of what happens in game. For instance when Saddam decided Kuwait was his, a world military force brought him down, & would eventually end his reign. When Russia stole Crimea, the vast majority of the world treated them as pariahs. You could argue these two examples are more like countries taking city states in game. A better example would be if here in the UK the government decided our old lands belonging to William the Conqueror were returned to us & marched over to take Normandy. If this happened France & the EU, not including the rest of the world which might as well, would declare war on us, & we would be pariahs. In game if it happened, Napoleon would be angry, but just shrug his shoulders, & the rest of the world would just ignore it.

    Gamewise, this is stupid & completely overpowered, & vastly favours warmongers over peaceful countries (exceptions like Portugal) due to them not having enough points to obtain GG in first place. If anyone should be having them are the more peaceful nations to defend themselves, the opposite of what happens in game. To my mind the GG is strong as it is as an extension to your army, & if you are going to have citadels I am not against them taking free land, but against stealing someone elses for no consequence. I have seen games where players have maneuvered their way to next to a city, wherby it is overpowered. To me that is ridiculous.

    I know this will not be a popular comment, but in my opinion GG are the most poverpowered GP by far in the game. To the developers, if we are going to keep them as they are, it would be nice to be able have an option to turn them off so if you want to play peaceful you can turn them off. If not that, have Americas ability to buy the land back, or have severe diplomatic repurcussions for using them.
     
  3. DeAnno

    DeAnno Prince

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    Towns are really bad, like really bad. Being dependent on roads and trade routes makes them fussier than the other GPTI and more rarely on a bonus resource of some kind, yet the yields are just worse and of common types. I think as a start the Culture output of a town should match that of a village.

    I agree Citadels are kind of obnoxious and the best GPTI by far and it isn't great for the game. It might be different if the diplomatic consequences were more severe. If they did lose their tile steals though they would need more base yields.
     
    Gokudo01, Kim Dong Un and youngsteve like this.
  4. Recursive

    Recursive Covets Lands That You Currently Own Moderator

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    The one part of diplomacy I haven't really waded into (because the code is totally obnoxious and hard to work with) is the dialogue system.

    Now that most things are working properly with diplomacy, and @Milae is handling World Congress voting logic...plus in order to rewrite trade logic I'd need a mastery of the dialogue system first...I think familiarizing myself with and fixing that will be my next priority once the next version is released.

    The peace logic is not great, but I could improve this more effectively if I had a handle on the messages and buttons and such.

    In regards to citadels (and also spying) I'd like to add the option for an immediate war declaration with no diplo penalties. This would require me to fix the dialogue system first though.
     
    mcdunne, DukeBrani, SupTo and 7 others like this.
  5. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    On the Great Admiral, I will say that the combat heal is one of the last few abilities the AI doesn't seem to have a handle on. I never see them use it, where it saves my bacon in naval battles often. However, quite frankly naval combat is already pretty darn hard for the human, as you can't use the same tricks you can on land....so I would be scared to death if the AI could also insta heal its navy!
     
    Kim Dong Un, Hinin and SwirlSlayer like this.
  6. youngsteve

    youngsteve Prince

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    I agree totally about Towns. Never build them but see AI do alot. I expect the AI has lots of GM throughout games as if you leave your management on automatic it will always specialise GM above anything else. The time they pop out I rarely need the money, & usually leave them in city near to friendly civ when I do. The AI though should in my opinion always get the cash from CS instead of Towns so they can get a lump sum, as long as they spend it on useful things like upgrading units & buildings, instead of lining human players pockets through stupid trade deals.

    The citadel & town are the most extreme examples of GP's abilities at different ends of the scale.
     
  7. Laz0r

    Laz0r Chieftain

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    Towns suck badly and would be made far more interesting and useful if they were given adjacency bonuses that give extra food and/or gold to adjacent tiles/improvements. This would allow the user to buff tiles to gain gold, useful when GA's are active in particular, and/or allow them to grow more. Also the WLTKD extension for each town placed should be increased because as it stands it barely increases the already low wltkd days gained from popping merchants, and WLTKD itself is a very lacking boon unless you have a religion or UA that buffs it.
     
    mcdunne and Bromar1 like this.
  8. tsmith7163

    tsmith7163 Chieftain

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    I like the GM - and the wltkd but I think the wltkd but should be longer or scale somehow with towns and era - the trade route also makes them more touchy- I like the GG but I don’t use it like some you tubers I’ve been watching- once you put it down you should not be able to remove it and then put another one down that’s a totally exploitive and Does not play with role-playing or flavor could you imagine if - the US built fort Bragg and destroyed it 2 years later
     
  9. EGA

    EGA Chieftain

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    Can you also make denoncing 5 turns before a war reduce the diplo penalties like in Civ 6?
     
  10. CrazyG

    CrazyG Deity

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    Towns are pretty bad, for the scaling to break even you need another 5 Great Merchants this game.

    I don't think any great person is so bad that I avoid using them though.
     
  11. DeAnno

    DeAnno Prince

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    It's actually way worse than that. The primary benefit of the GM WLTKD isn't the raw number of days, it's that it resets the resource, so when it ends its pathetically short period you have a chance at an easier get. So getting 5 individual days tacked on later isn't really the same value as one full reset, even neglecting that lol the natural interest rate of the game has more than cut the real value in four probably by then.

    I saw an idea where Towns scaled the days from all WLTKD sources, but I think even that isn't enough unless they scaled them by +2 instead of +1.
     
  12. Recursive

    Recursive Covets Lands That You Currently Own Moderator

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    Denouncing 5 turns before a war in Civ 6 doesn't reduce the warmongering penalties; it simply stops them from being increased. As the system is now, a surprise war doesn't increase warmongering penalties, so this wouldn't be useful.
     
  13. pineappledan

    pineappledan Deity

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  14. Kim Dong Un

    Kim Dong Un The One & Unly Supporter

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    I've brought this up in the past, but I still dislike how you can lose yields when placing a GPTI on certain tiles (e.g., iron mines with a forge get +1 science, but 'improving' with a Manufactory will remove the +1 science because it's technically not a mine anymore...). Regardless of the logistics, it's bad mouthfeel, often leading me into situations where I'm having to vexatiously scrutinize GPTI placement based on city terrain; you even have to outright avoid GPTI placement with certain pantheons like Earth Mother, Springtime, etc. This is especially irritating for a player like Great Leader, who loves to have his cities aesthetically pleasing if possible, with the appropriately themed GPTI's preferably placed on their corresponding tiles. This is something that's pretty trivial over the course of a game, but it's one of the things I always despise the most when I play.

    In terms of the GPTI themselves:
    • Merchant has already been singled out, and I agree they should have culture like villages. Stalker also had a great idea previously to make each town increase WLTKD turns by 1 for all triggers, not just from bulbing.
    • General is the strongest, for the reasons mentioned by others. My biggest issue is the AI spamming Citadels when they should ideally be holding at least 2 GG's if possible at all times in case of needing to fight on separate fronts. I'm pretty sure ilteroi just tinkered with this for the next version, so hopefully there's improvement.
    • Academies base yields might look diminished now that forts are stronger -- I often see the city governor choosing to work other tiles over Academies -- but they still hold some value since the GS bulb nerf a few versions ago. I try to plant around 4 per-game for roleplay (academies of writing/arts/music + military/naval).
    • Manufactories are still kind of meh, but they synergize with factories now though, so I think that's probably good enough.
    • Diplomats are now used almost exclusively for embassies until none remain -- perfect! It took a bit, but it's nice to see the AI consistent with this now.
    • A Prophet's Holy Site should include base tourism, not just from reforming with Way of the Pilgrim; I can't recall if this is already the case, but I don't think it is.
     
    dostillevi, jekke and usadefcon1 like this.
  15. CrazyG

    CrazyG Deity

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    They do start with tourism. It's not very much in the scheme of things though.
     
  16. phantomaxl1207

    phantomaxl1207 King

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    GPTI probably need more Yield boosts through out the Tech Tree.

    Double the yield bonuses that Towns get as a start.

    What if dropping a Town gave the nearest City +1 Pop.

    Musician Specialists give more Yields than other Cultural Specialists; should Great Works of Music also have a Yield increase.

    Are we doing a Poll for Specialists as well?
     
    Kim Dong Un likes this.
  17. Kim Dong Un

    Kim Dong Un The One & Unly Supporter

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    They should start with a base of 5, regardless of beliefs, and WotP would double it.
     
    CrazyG likes this.
  18. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    I do plan on it, didn't want to throw out too many at a time though:)

    So Music does get a major boost at broadcast towers, as the theming bonus is pretty solid.
     
    phantomaxl1207 likes this.
  19. LarryAR

    LarryAR Chieftain

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    I agree that towns and manufactories, should not reduce science. Examples are Los Alamos, NM and Oak Ridge, TN. Both in real life gained great manufacturing and science improvements as great people gathered there.

    Citadels are okay as is. They reflect the border changes and allegiances caused by military influence. There are still diplomatic penalties and harsh words when they are built.
     
  20. azum4roll

    azum4roll Emperor

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    The only weakness of citadel is that sometimes you can "accidentally" steal your friend's land too when you simply want enemy lands, and they won't like it.

    Manufactories are still only slightly better than a mine late game even with the factory boost, making Great Engineers really weak at that time (not to mention they're the worst specialists too).
     

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