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Poll: New leaders for existing civilizations

Discussion in '[MAC+WIN] Civ4 - History Rewritten' started by Xyth, Mar 8, 2013.

  1. lindsay40k

    lindsay40k Emperor

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    I'm making scenarios and I entirely agree, don't factor them as more than a passing concern. Civ IV is not a good medium for historic refights, and hardly anyone chooses a scenario over starting from scratch in the Stone Age. I put tagged landmarks in my Earth maps because I know that the wonder of discovery is a big part of why almost every game is an ancient era start, finding the Three Parallel Rivers again makes it more fun to replay as another Asian civ :)
     
  2. ales_

    ales_ Heir

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    The RFC Dawn of Civilization mod uses this Boccanegra leaderhead as Lorenzo de' Medici: http://forums.civfanatics.com/downloads.php?do=file&id=19966.
     
  3. ales_

    ales_ Heir

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    Where's Swahili?
     
  4. Xyth

    Xyth History Rewritten

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    Yeah I was going to have a look around and see if there was any 'close enough' art we could use. Definite possibility.

    Oops! Edited them in; I think they're fine as is.
     
  5. ales_

    ales_ Heir

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    I have decide to post here and share my thoughts on this topic. Currently, we have enough available leader slots but one day we’ll have a shortage of them. So I also mention what leaders can be removed IMO.


    Celts

    I think the Celts are worth of getting a 5th leader slot. IMO it should be a Welsh leader.


    England

    Alfred will be a good addition. He’s more worth than Cromwell.


    Netherlands

    I agree that 2 leaders are enough for them.


    France

    I think Karolus should become the 5th French leader. IMO he doesn’t make sense as a German leader. I can explain why if you’re interested.


    Germany

    If you remove Karolus, than you can add both Barbarossa and Hitler.


    Scandinavia

    Scandinavia is covered ideally: three leaders to represent three periods and three countries. I don’t think we can find somebody more appropriate of the same period instead of Ragnar.


    Poland

    I’m biased, so my opinion isn’t that important. I think Poland deserves a 3rd leader, but not a 4th. It’s hard to decide: Pilsudski represents an unrepresented period, and Vitaut an important region. I’m leaning towards Vitaut because: 1) I’m biased; 2) Not all civs have modern leaders even when it’s appropriate, so representing Lithuania is more important IMO.


    Russia

    Ivan the Terrible will be a good addition. Also, I don’t see much sense in having both Peter and Yekaterina, they both represent the Russian empire. I think Peter is more important, so you can remove Yekaterina, but that’s not urgent because I don’t think Russia needs yet another leader and we have lots of free slots for new leaders.


    Hungary

    I’m pleased with the current 3 leaders.


    Greece

    I think we can justify a 5th leader: one of the Hellenistic leaders, like Ptolemy or Cleopatra.


    Rome

    I think we can justify 2 separate civs: Rome and Italy. If we can have both Greece and Byzantium, then why can’t we have both Rome and Italy? They were rather different from each other; they both had a longer history than some of the other civs. And they had enough great leaders. If we separate them, Rome can have all of his current leaders + a kingdom leader (Romulus) or a WRE leader. Italy can have a Venetian leader, a Renaissance leader and a more modern leader.


    Byzantium

    Three leaders is enough for Byzantium.


    Phoenicia

    3 leaders is enough, I think. Hiram is rather important for me, the only alternative I see is Pygmalion, but he’s too close to Dido.


    Spain

    I have never understood why is Argantonio a Spanish ruler? It’s too big of a stretch IMO.


    Portugal

    Maria will be great as a later leader. But I have the same question as with Spain: why is Viriato a Portugal leader? It doesn’t make sense IMO.


    Egypt

    I think 3 leaders is enough for Egypt but Hatshepsut can be replaced with a Middle Kingdom ruler.


    Nubia

    I agree that we need to represent the medieval period.


    Ethiopia

    I think we should find a new art for Lalibela and use the existing for Menelik II.


    Berbers

    I think a more ancient leader will be great.


    Mali

    I agree that Ghana needs representation. But 4 leaders is too much IMO. You should remove one Niani leader, Sundjata, for example.


    Kongo

    2 leaders are enough.


    Swahili

    No need for more leaders.


    Zulu

    Even if Mandela wasn’t alive, I think it’s too big of a stretch.


    Sumer

    2 leaders is enough, but I think Gilgamesh can be renamed as somebody more important.


    Amurru

    Amurru is one of the Mesopotamian civs that is worth of getting a 3rd leader.


    Assyria

    We still have time to remove anybody, but I think that 3 leaders is too much. Shammuramat can be removed.


    Hatti

    Not a big period of time. So, 2 leaders are enough.


    Israel

    Herod doesn’t make sense IMO. I think you should either remove him or replace by a Maccabee or modern leader. Also, I think Solomon should be replaced by David. He was the most important leader in Hebrew history.


    Arabia

    I’m happy with the current five leaders.


    Persia

    A 5th, more modern, leader will be great. I think having both Cyrus and Darius isn’t ideal. I’d better see a Median leader instead of one of them.


    Kushan

    I think that it’ll be great to replace one of their current leaders by a Tarim basin leader.


    Turks

    I have found this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historic_states_represented_in_Turkish_presidential_seal. We can understand the Turkic history as these states. This means that Attila and Timur can become Turkic leaders. And I think having both Suleiman and Mehmed isn’t ideal.


    Mongolia

    The current 3 leaders (or 2, if Timur will be moved) are fine.


    Tibet

    Fine as is.


    India

    I think Shivaji should be the 5th leader.


    Tamil

    You have written that you have no obvious candidates, but later you’ve written that they are a candidate for a new leader. Why?


    Siam

    3 leaders (with Naresuan) is enough.


    Angkor

    Probably fine as is.


    Vietnam

    3 leaders are enough.


    Indonesia

    Suharto is the only leader we can add


    China

    I think we should add a Han and Ming leaders and remove Wu.


    Korea

    I don't know a lot about Korean history as well, so I don’t know.


    Japan

    Japan deserves a 4th leader IMO.


    Polynesia

    3 leaders is enough.


    America

    3 leader is plenty.


    Iroquois

    2 is plenty.


    Sioux

    Fine as is.


    Anasazi

    So we know only two leaders of Anasazi?


    Aztec

    I think we're okay here.


    Maya

    We have enough slots, so we can add a 3rd leader.


    Inca

    If we don’t represent the other Andean people, 2 leaders are enough.


    Brazil

    2 leaders are enough IMO.


    So I agree with you in most points and have some suggestions for France, Greece, Rome and Turks.
     
  6. Xyth

    Xyth History Rewritten

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    Agreed.


    Would be nice to have the Anglo-Saxon period represented. Lower priority for now though.


    I think a strong case could be made for either France or Germany. I opted for both, rather than choosing one over the other. Interested to hear your thoughts though.

    I was considering Harald Bluetooth but I'm not keen to replace an Asatru leader with yet another Christian leader. The more I think about it the more happy I am with Ragnar staying.

    I think we can afford a third Polish leader.

    If I was creating the Russian civ from scratch I wouldn't have both Peter and Yekaterina, no. Nor would I have both Julius and Augustus for the Romans. But they can stay unless there's a pressing need to open a slot in the civ, which there isn't for Russia but may well be for Rome.

    Maybe. Low priority though.

    In many ways I'd prefer Greece and Byzantium to be merged. I won't, as it was very unpopular when I mentioned doing so in the past. Consider Byzantium a tolerated exception and not a justification for further splits by era, certainly not of another European civ.


    They both represent the pre-Roman Iberian peoples of the region, part of the genetic and cultural makeup of what eventually became Spain and Portugal. Makes good sense to me. Viriato is even a national hero of Portugal.


    No, I'm keeping Hatshepsut. She's one of history's greatest female rulers and absolutely deserves to be there in my opinion.

    That's my tentative plan. Lalibela's art was meant to be Menelik II anyway. I have some unreleased art for Lalibela that looks great, but the author claims it's unfinished. I need to check and see how usable it is and probably ask the author's permission.

    I think 4 leaders will be fine. This civ is covering a vast area and quite a number of significant states.

    Agreed.

    I think Gilgamesh is about as important as it gets here, despite being semi-legendary.

    Yes, there needs to be a Syrian leader here.

    She's certainly one of the first leaders I'd cut from HR if I needed to, but she can stay for now.

    David and Solomon seem to of fairly equal renown. I went with Solomon as he best suited the art and traits available (he's absolutely perfect for Judicial/Spiritual). Herod fits well enough in my opinion. Gives the civ 3 very different style leaders. I may consider adding Modern Israeli leader in the future, shall see.

    Cyrus/Darius is another Julius/Augustus situation. I'll keep them both for now. A more modern 5th leader for sure though.

    Very little is known about Kushan/Tocharian/Yuezhi rulers prior to Kadphises. I wouldn't remove either of the current leaders but if we found enough information and art I'd consider adding a third, earlier leader.

    The Huns connection with the Turks are even more vague than their supposed connections with the Magyar. Timur fits in with either the Turks or the Mongols, or even the Persians. I prefer to leave him with the Mongols as there's room for him there, allowing other options for the Turks and Persians.

    Definite candidate. 5th leader should be either a Pala or Maratha I reckon. Will probably come down to what art is available.

    No obvious candidate for the Tamil, but since the civ is becoming Dravida there are the other southern empires to consider.

    I found better art for him, will be added in 1.21.

    Depends on art, there's not a lot of quality Chinese leader art available, certainly not enough for 2 more leaders. Probably easier to reuse Taizong as a Han or Ming leader, and keep Wu as the Tang leader. Not ideal, but likely the only option. Wu, for all her controversy, makes for a very interesting opponent.

    Yes, thinking one of the Minamoto emperors. Art dependant again.


    We actually don't know any. Po'pay was a Tewa Pueblo, one of the descendant tribes of the Anasazi. Kochininako is a figure from Hopi and Zumi (other descended tribes) mythology.
     
  7. Absolution

    Absolution Prince

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    I have just today completed a project of my ideal complete version of CivIV. I think you can take a look at it here and maybe find some ideas for leaders to add.

    It includes 116 civilizations and many leaders.
    However it is not based on the philosophy of HR.
    It is built according to my "philosophy" of leaders inclusion and of what is a civilization in the terms of the game, so I believe you won't agree with some of my decisions.
    That's because the project is inteded for the original BtS (also with original BtS traits), and I plan to use it for other mods and other uses (and maybe even civ5).
    But even if you don't agree with the division of the civilizations, at least you'll have a collection of important leaders to add, and I'll be glad of every single one you adopt.
    This project was made after deep and intesive historical research, so I am quite satisfied with my conclusion, but you can ask me about anything that is not clear in the project, or about my considerations in some choices.

    In general, the project is theoretical, and was initially made for my own conviniece, to write down all of my suggestions to several modders, but turned into a year of on and off work and deep research, with a nice result that I'm proud of :)

    So here's the link: http://forums.civfanatics.com/downloads.php?do=file&id=21743
    Read the donwload page, and open with internet explorer! It looks terrible on chrome.
     
  8. Azoth

    Azoth Inscrutable

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    My thoughts on leaders:

    FRANCE When you say you "opted for both," do you mean that Charlemagne/Karolus will be available for both France and Germany? If not, I would love to see Cardinal Richelieu, especially if, as you say, there's good art available for him. There are so many kings in HR, it's always refreshing to see some other political actors included.

    GERMANY I fully support Barbarossa over Hitler. The Barbarossa leader art is fantastic and Hitler carries too much political baggage.

    SCANDINAVIA I'd like to see Christian IV of Denmark, contemporary and rival of Gustav II, as a fourth Scandinavian leader. We don't have any properly Danish kings, and there's art available: http://forums.civfanatics.com/downloads.php?do=file&id=11732 Also, if Knut can be an Asatru leader, even though he was baptized and built many churches and monasteries, then I think you can get away with an Asatru Harald. Scandinavia was not fully Christian under his reign, which is what counts. (Or you could just stick with Ragnar.)

    POLAND I also slightly favour Vytautus over Pilsudski. But with 20 leader traits, we might be able to add both.

    RUSSIA We can use the Vladimir I art here http://forums.civfanatics.com/downloads.php?do=file&id=19967 for Ivan IV.

    HUNGARY I think a good case can be made for replacing Kossuth (19th c. lawyer, journalist, revolutionary) with Louis I "The Great" of Hungary (14th c. king), who ruled Hungary at the height of its power. Leader art here: http://forums.civfanatics.com/downloads.php?do=file&id=17172. I'm not keen to cut a non-royal, but I think it's justified in this case. (Or maybe Hungary can have four leaders?) I also support replacing Attila with Arpad. If you have different art for Arpad, then Attila can become a Turkic leader.

    GREECE If we do add a fifth leader, I vote for Antiochus III "The Great" of the Seleucid Empire, seen here: http://forums.civfanatics.com/downloads.php?do=file&id=12691

    ROME If we're serious about Rome representing Italy, then I think both Scipio and Augustus need to go. That would leave Julius and Marcus Aurelius, to whose ranks you can add Enrico Dandolo, Lorenzo de' Medici, and Cavour. (Scipio and Garibaldi can make an appearance as Great Generals.) Ales already pointed out some usable leaderheads: http://forums.civfanatics.com/downloads.php?do=file&id=19967. I think Boccanegra as Dandolo and Charles the Bold as Medici work best. Cavour you already have.

    BYZANTIUM I support Basil II for the third leader.

    PHOENICIA If you like, you can rename Hiram as Ithobal I. He does seem to have been slightly more important.

    SPAIN There probably are better choices for the period than El Cid. Sancho III of Navarra, as Absolution mentioned, might be one. You'd have to use the Clovis leader art for him, and use the Phillip II art here http://forums.civfanatics.com/downloads.php?do=file&id=19967 for Clovis. The fleur-de-lis was first adopted under Clovis, so that fits. Or you could keep El Cid.

    PORTUGAL Maria I works, I guess. But I'd be tempted to make her a Brazilian leader and use Alfonso I instead: http://forums.civfanatics.com/downloads.php?do=file&id=13595.

    (More to come.)
     
  9. ales_

    ales_ Heir

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    France.
    He was the king of Franks, and IMO Germany appeared only in 843.
    Rome.
    There are just so many leaders... I think there should be 3 Roman and 2 Italian leaders. But I don't know who.
     
  10. Absolution

    Absolution Prince

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    Sorry, the download link in the downlaod page was akward, I fixed it: http://forums.civfanatics.com/downloads.php?do=file&id=21743


    And for the discussion:

    1. Norway is not represented.
    2. There is a long gap between Canute and Gustav Adolf.
    So I suggest you add Haakon IV instead of Ragnar. He's perfect in that case.

    Ivan IV won't make much difference from Peter I. They both represent Tsarist Russia.
    If you want someone else between Yaroslav and Catherine it can be Ivan III who represent the Grand Duchy, or even Alexander Nevsky who represents the important republic of Novgorod. The art can fit for both.

    One of them can easily be Cyaxares I. I don't think that anyone can claim that he looked much different form Cyrus or Darius...

    Hungary indeed deserves another king.
     
  11. ales_

    ales_ Heir

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    Knut represents Norway.
     
  12. Absolution

    Absolution Prince

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    He was also king of Norway, but it wasn't his main title, and is better known as king of Denmark. Not of Norway.
     
  13. AbsintheRed

    AbsintheRed Deity

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    What are the current leaders for Hungary?
    The best options historically:
    Árpád, István I (St. Stephen), Béla III or Béla IV, Lajos I (Louis I), Mátyás I (Matthias Corvinus), Kossuth Lajos
    All of them have great leaderhead art too, so that's no problem either
     
  14. Xyth

    Xyth History Rewritten

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    Nice, great effort! Such projects and discussions are always fascinating. This will be a very useful resource.

    I mean that Karolus is a German leader while Clovis is a French leader. Not intending to make both available to both civs.

    Art: http://forums.civfanatics.com/downloads.php?do=file&id=11352. I agree, I'm always up for adding interesting and influential political figures that weren't the actual monarch.

    Agreed. Barbarossa fills a definite gap between Karolus and Maximilian too.

    I'm keeping Ragnar as Ragnar, at least for now. Does sound like a 4th leader could be warranted here. I don't have any particular preference at this time.

    Vytautus is probably the more necessary inclusion. A 4th slot for Poland is pretty low priority but we'll see.

    All interesting options. Will have to think about it.

    Currently Attila (being removed for obvious reasons), Corvin Mátyas, and Kossuth. Intending to add Árpád to replace Attila as soon as Capo releases him. Novator's István I art is fantastic, very tempted to add him because of that, even if he is a bit close era-wise to Árpád.

    Attila the Turk is even more of a historical leap than Attila the Hungarian. Sadly I think he just needs to go. If I can ever figure out how to enable barbarian diplomacy, he can be a leader there :p

    Definite candidate, I prefer him or even a Baktrian Greek leader over one of the Ptolemies. Low priority though, even though we're adding a lot of new leader slots in 1.21 I want to be careful not to add too many new European leaders without the rest of the world getting comprehensive representation too. And some slots need to be left open for new civs too.

    For Rome I think there has to be a minimum of 1 leader from the Republic (Scipio or Julius), the Empire (Julius, Augustus, Marcus, or anyone else really - so much art available). For Italy I feel we absolutely have to have a Venetian leader (Dandolo or Domenico Selvo) and a Renaissance figure (Lorenzo de Medici). The 5th slot would the be a modern Italian leader (Cavour) or another Roman emperor. Personally I'm inclined to go with the latter, I still want the civ to be primarily Roman in nature.

    I decided to stick with Hiram in the end. There are Tyrian kings more accomplished than him, but Hiram is from the era when Tyre itself was at it's height. Contemporaneous with Solomon too, which is a minor, but nice bonus. I'd like to add a Bronze Age ruler of Sidon or Gebal (Byblos) in the future though, should we have space.

    I like El Cid for much the same reasons as Cardinal Richelieu or Michiel de Ruyter.

    That art is too similar to the art I use for Richard the Lionheart.

    Possible. Have to think about it.
     
  15. AbsintheRed

    AbsintheRed Deity

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    I know I'm talking home, but maybe it's not bad to have 4 leaders for Hungary :)
    There are so many great hungarian LHs out there after all.
    IIRC Hungary has the 2nd most LHs, right after the United States.
    Maybe we even took the lead with some of the recent releases of the new Bela IV, Istvan, and the upcoming Arpad. :king:
     
  16. Azoth

    Azoth Inscrutable

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    More thoughts:

    CELTICA A Welsh leader would be nice. But I think the only way you'll be able to include Llywellyn is (again) to use the Clovis leaderhead for him, and sub in the Phillip II art for Clovis.


    ROME I think modern Italy is of a sufficiently different character to medieval or Renaissance Italy to justify Cavour. If you want to go with three Roman emperors, though, I suppose Augustus is best, alongside Julius and Marcus. Also, the Spanish king from Colonization might make for a passable Medici, assuming Boccanegra as Dandolo. He'd be better than Charles the Bold, anyway.


    ETHIOPIA Adding Menelik II sounds good.


    NUBIA Merkurios would be a fine addition.


    MAHGREB I think a Cordovan leader would be best, likely Abd Ar-Rahman III, as the Islamic civilization in Andalusia is otherwise unrepresented. Not to mention, the Berber UW is Alhambra. Art should not be hard to find.


    MALI I'd like to see an Ashanti leader, such as Osei Tutu, but I have no idea where you'd find the art.


    AMURRU I'm no expert on Mesopotamia, but I think the distinction between Sumer and Amurru works reasonably well. I guess the most logical choice for a third leader is Aziru of Amurru. Ibruim of Ebla is another option. The Cyaxeres leaderhead here [Edit: http://forums.civfanatics.com/downloads.php?do=file&id=19967] should work for either.


    ASSYRIA Shammuramat seems to have been an unremarkable queen regent whose fame owes mostly to Greek storytellers. She can be cut, but there aren't many women in HR to begin with, so I don't mind keeping her. Also, Tiglath-Pileser III seems to have been much more important ruler than Tiglath-Pileser I. What made you choose the latter?


    ISRAEL I'd happily replace David with Ben-Gurion. If you don't like the existing art, this Kucan leaderhead could work: http://forums.civfanatics.com/downloads.php?do=file&id=12980.


    ARABIA A less controversial alternative to Bilqis could be Arwa Al-Sulayhi, a renowned Yemeni queen, the greatest of her dynasty, who was in fact nicknamed the Little Queen of Sheba. She'd be my choice. If you're set on a pre-Islamic ruler, you can go with Mawiyya instead, who led Arab tribes in Syria.


    PERSIA I support recasting Darius as Uvaxshtra (Cyaxares) of Medes. For the fifth Persian leader, I would suggest Mahmud of Ghazni over someone more recent. His empire, which stretched from Persia into Afghanistan and India, highlights the extent of Persian influence over the nations to its east (as opposed to the Medes and Achaemenids who engaged with the west). There's also surprising appropriate art in the name of Deiokes of Medes: [Edit: http://forums.civfanatics.com/downloads.php?do=file&id=19969].


    KUSHANA I think this civilization should be expanded in the same way that Mali was. We can call it the Bactrian Empire (Short Name: Bactria). We would retain Kanishka "The Great" of the Kushan Empire, but replace Kadiphses with Menander "The Savior", the Buddhist king of the Indo-Greek Empire, known in ancient India as Milinda. The Indo-Greek Empire is absolutely fascinating but sadly obscure, and I'd love to see it featured. What do you think?


    TURKESTAN I think part of the confusion surrounding the Turks is the conflation of Turkey with Turkestan, and Turkish with Turkic. While the Anatolian Turks of modern-day Turkey, and their immediate predecessors, the Ottoman Turks, are a Turkic peoples, that designation also applies to various Central Asian (Azerbaijani, Kazakh, Kyrgyz, Uzbek, etc.), Crimean, and Siberian peoples, and the Malmuk, Timurid, Mughal, and possibly Hunnic dynasties. Turkestan, meanwhile, refers to the steppes of Central Asia, and not Turkey. "Mehmed of Turkestan" and "Ataturk of Turkestan" are therefore incorrectly styled. I think we need to split this civilization. While a Turkish Empire (Short Name: Turkey) would be appropriate, the words Turkish and Turkic are probably too close and will cause confusion. Thus, I suggest:

    The Ottoman Empire (Short Name: Anatolia) Leaders: Mehmed, Suleiman, Ataturk
    The Turkic Empire (Short Name: Turkestan) Leaders: Arp Aslan, Attila, plus any of the following:
    • Timur, though he can remain a Mongol leader
    • Muqan Qaghan of the Gokturks
    • Tong Yabghu (Zeibel) of the Khazaks
    • Qu'ai Bay of the Malmuks
    • Tygyn Darkhan of the Yakuts

    Or did you have other new civilizations in mind?
     
  17. Azoth

    Azoth Inscrutable

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    Finally:

    INDIA I was also in favour of dividing India further, but I think an India/Dravida split is sufficient, with India comprising the northern dynasties, and Dravida encompassing the rest. To that end, I think the fifth Indian leader should be a Gupta, from the Golden Age of India. That was the time when the broad outlines of Indian culture - its art, engineering, mathematics, and philosophy - were developed: an India without a Gupta is like a Greece without Pericles. I suggest Samudragupta. You can use the current Kanishka art for him, and this for Kanishka: http://forums.civfanatics.com/downloads.php?do=file&id=17319, a better match for the leader.

    DRAVIDA Expanding Tamilakum to Dravida gives space to all the non-northern Indian cultures; the Pala, Vijayanagara, and Maratha have been mentioned already. Ideally, we'd include all three, adding Devapala "The Great", Krishna Deva Raya, and Shivaji. There is enough decent art: Devapala (Porus), Krishna Deva Raya, Shivaji (with mustache). The Ambhi leaderhead from the first pack is also available. Adding three leaders might seem indulgent, but they're from different cultures and time periods: it's a way of showcasing the diversity of the subcontinent without the need for a third civilization, for which there definitely isn't enough art.

    SIAM Naresuan would be a good third leader. For art, I could only think of using the Jayavarman leaderhead, and replacing it with this: http://forums.civfanatics.com/downloads.php?do=file&id=21374.

    INDONESIA Suharto sounds good.

    CHINA I would really prefer to keep Taizong. Compared to the monstrous tyrants Qin and Mao, and the controversial Wu, Taizong is a saint: wise, just, compassionate, respected. He deserves to be included. I would keep all four and add Han Wudi, for whom this leaderhead might do: http://forums.civfanatics.com/downloads.php?do=file&id=13257.

    KOREA Gwanggaeto "The Great" seems the natural choice for a third Korean leader. Here's some possible art: http://forums.civfanatics.com/downloads.php?do=file&id=21357

    JAPAN There are many choices for a fourth leader but I like Prince Shotoku from the Asuka period.

    IROQUOIS Logan should be renamed Thayendanegea (Joseph Brant), a celebrated Mohawk military and political leader. There are also better choices than Hiawatha, who is, after all, a legendary figure: Gaiant'wake (Cornplanter) or Sagoyewatha (Red Jacket).

    AZTEC The Nahua people and the Nahuatl language survived the conquistadors. So how about including a modern Mexican leader, say Benito Juarez, a Zapotec lawyer and politician? It's no more of a leap than Suharto of Indonesia but maybe the name of the civilization will have to be changed.

    MAYA I'd prefer another leader of an established Mayan city-state over the leader of an obscure Andean culture about which little is known.
     
  18. Absolution

    Absolution Prince

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    I'd prefer Domenico Selvo over Dandolo. Dandolo is more widely known, but isn't considered a great doge, like Selvo.

    I agree. Augustus is an exemplary historical figure, and really shouldn't be removed.
    Julius is also good, because he represents the transition from republic to an empire.
    However, in case Italy would be a different civilziation, Majorian can be a good leader to add to the Roman empire, to represent the West. Any Roman art can fit for him.

    As far as I know, the Andalusian muslim entities were Arabs, and not Berbers, so I would suggest Abd ar-Rahman as a 5th Arab leader.
    Modern Berber leaders can be Moroccan kings.

    Both are great ideas, but it seems like there are too many Arab leaders to add.

    He can be a good leader to add, but the Deikos art doesn't not look like him....
    Spoiler :


    The Turkic-Turkish confusion is similar to the Germanic-German confusion.
    A Turkic civilization is too wide indeed.

    Seljuks and Ottomans are both considered Oghuz Turk dynasties.
    Therfore, Seljuk are sometimes referred to as Turkish.
    So I think that the current 4 leaders can be put under the term Turkish.
    However - if you want to add more Central Asian Turks, you'll have to name them differently. For example - Gokturk civilization (earlier turks), Uyghur civilization, or whoever you choose.

    I agree. But this art looks like Durrani :)

    Krishna Deva Raya is maybe the greatest south Indian ruler. He must be in.
    If you want some modern leaders, it can be leaders of Travancore or Mysore, but I don't think there is good art for them.

    This art can work well for Gajah Mada, who I think should replace Hayam Wuruk.
    And then Hayam Wuruk's art can maybe fit for a Thai ruler.

    A really good choice to represent earlier Korea.
     
  19. Xyth

    Xyth History Rewritten

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    I agree regarding Italy, I guess I just find Cavour himself a bit uninteresting and it irks me to consider removing a fascinating leader like Scipio or Marcus Aurelias for him. I need to mull it over for a while.

    I think the Charles the Bold art works best. I'll make a few minor modifications to it, new background, recolour his clothes, etc. I've seen previews of an excellent and accurate Medici leaderhead that is being made (slowly), so whatever we put in will probably get replaced in time anyway.

    Yes, important to select Berber leaders/states over Arab ones here. The Caliphate of Cordoba was a remnant of the Ummayads Caliphate.

    It's too much of a stretch to include the Ashanti in Mali. The cultures of southern West Africa (Edo, Yoruba, Hausa, etc) were (and still are) quite distinct from the Mandé people of the Sahel.

    Both good options.

    Yeah, I'm always more lenient with female leaders. She'll get cut if I found a better use for her art elsewhere or we ran out of slots. No harm keeping her in the meantime.

    Tiglath-Pileser I represents the original Assyrian Empire, while Tiglath-Pileser III is from the Neo-Assyrian Empire - already covered by Ashurbanipal and Shammuramat.

    I really want the 5th leader to cover both pre-Islamic and Southern Arabia. Maybe Yemen deserves to be its own civ after all.

    I'm a bit reluctant as Darius was effectively the Augustus of Persia (and Cyrus the Julius). Cyaxares was a more Cyrus-like figure, and I certainly wouldn't even consider cutting Cyrus. It would be good to cover the Medes though. Tricky.

    Yes, very tempted to select him. Good point about the eastern focus, and he would also fill the very long gap between the Sassanids and Safavids.

    Interesting idea. Mali works well because all 3 great empires there were founded by different branches of the Mandé people. In comparison a Bactrian civ would be encompassing with a number of quite different ethnicities, cultures, and states. 'Bactria' feels like too narrow a term too, covers the Indo-Greeks much better than the Kushan. Not ruling this out though, will ponder.

    I've yet to find a division of the current civ that I'm happy with. As Absolution points out, the Seljuks and Ottomans are all Oghuz Turks; I think it's best I redesignate the civ as Turkish and Turkey. The latter is a little bit weird for Alp Arslan but so be it. Better than the current situation. We can consider the more eastern Turkic peoples unrepresented for now.

    Chandragupta in HR is Chandragupta II of the Gupta Empire. He used to be Chandragupta Maurya but I changed that a while back.

    The Palas and Marathas aren't Dravidian, they still fit best in Northern India. Vijayanagara absolutely though.

    What I was thinking too.

    Yeah, I don't want to remove Taizong.

    I'm not familiar with these two. Will read up on them.

    Good call on Thayendanegea. I prefer to retain Hiawatha though; I don't mind having leaders that have been mythologized, so long as its plausible that they actually existed. Also, there are plenty of choices from colonial times, much harder to find Native American leaders from earlier eras.

    I have wondered before about expanding the Aztec civ to a Mexican civ. Could work quite well, definitely something to consider.
     
  20. lindsay40k

    lindsay40k Emperor

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    If the Aztec can be expanded to a Mexican civ, surely there's room to consider adapting the Zulu to have leaders representing more than 71 years of rulers & including individuals not primarily reknowned for warfare?
     

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