Poll: New Spy System - Do you like it?

Discussion in 'Community Patch Project' started by Stalker0, Aug 20, 2021.

?

Do you like the new Spy System concept?

Poll closed Sep 10, 2021.
  1. Yes

    8.9%
  2. Yes, But

    43.0%
  3. No

    48.1%
  1. PhilMyBelly

    PhilMyBelly Chieftain

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    Thank you for this!!!
    I believe this is why my spies werent functionning properly? Because I never activate the event system...
     
  2. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch Supporter

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    you don't need the event system active for spies to work
     
  3. PhilMyBelly

    PhilMyBelly Chieftain

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    Alright then thanks! Last patch i wasn't getting any rewards from spy missions but I guess i'll have to try again this patch!
     
  4. Previously

    Previously Chieftain

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    I’m playing a Huge map on Marathon, Emperor difficulty, with Tall Ethiopia. There are 10 civs left and admittedly, probably an insane amount of spies in my capital city. I’m in the Atomic era with a ton of spy defense modifiers: Rationalism’s spy policy, Order’s doubled counter-espionage, police stations, at least 6 levels of public works and rank 3 spies on +50% counterespionage missions in every city. All of my cities are basically on max security, all the time. Despite stacking all of these, I’ll only capture maybe a quarter of enemy spies and deal with 6-8 tiles being pillaged (which is crippling because I’m in tundra), 16000+ gold draining from my pockets or production completely reset every 5 turns or so.

    The pillaging gets particularly annoying because it feels like I hadn’t even turned off Bad Events, and yet I still have to deal with repairing the same tiles 3 or 4 times per era.

    Do my settings just break the system or am I doing something wrong here?
     
    Last edited: Sep 8, 2021
  5. notaspambot

    notaspambot Warlord

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    Correct me if I'm wrong, but the calculations seem to be a bit wonky for CvGame::SetHighestSpyPotential():
    Code:
    					int iResistance = kLoopPlayer.GetEspionage()->GetSpyResistance(pLoopCity);
    
    					//are we better than 'average?'
    					int iDelta = GC.getESPIONAGE_GATHERING_INTEL_COST_PERCENT() - iResistance;
    					iDelta /= GC.getBALANCE_SPY_SABOTAGE_RATE();
    					//is our resistance better than average? Increase spy rank! Otherwise, reduce it.
    					if (iDelta < 0)
    						pLoopCity->ChangeEspionageRanking(iDelta, iNumSpies > 0);
    					else if (iDelta > 0)
    						pLoopCity->ChangeEspionageRanking(-iDelta, iNumSpies > 0);
    
    For reference, ESPIONAGE_GATHERING_INTEL_COST_PERCENT is 1000, iResistance is (100+Spy Resistance)% of that, Spy Resistance is the number you see on the when hovering on owned cities in the UI, and Espionage Ranking is the security level.

    Anyway, it looks here that a city's security levels will decrease no matter what, unless its spy resistance is exactly at 0. If it's positive, the value is subtracted, and added when negative. This is in contrast with the tooltip that states:
    Code:
    		<Row Tag="TXT_KEY_POTENTIAL_CALCULATION">
    			<Text>[ICON_SPY] Spy Resistance: [COLOR_POSITIVE_TEXT]{1_Num}[ENDCOLOR][NEWLINE][NEWLINE]If [ICON_SPY] Spy Resistance is negative, the City's Security Level will slowly [COLOR_NEGATIVE_TEXT]reduce[ENDCOLOR] to 1. If positive, it will slowly [COLOR_POSITIVE_TEXT]increase[ENDCOLOR] to 10.</Text>
    		</Row>
    
     
  6. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch Supporter

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    No, but an EspionageLog.csv would be useful for debugging.

    I'm aware of this issue, it'll be fixed in 1.0.2.

    G
     
  7. Previously

    Previously Chieftain

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    Where can I find this? Sorry for the trouble.
     
  8. looorg

    looorg Prince

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    c5vox-moneytown.jpg

    OK this has been going on for a bit I think. While I do like the new spy system the yields just doesn't make any sense what so ever. At first I thought this was just some weird thing that would be sorted eventually but it's been going on for a bit now and it has not changed. So can someone, @Gazebo, explain how this system is actually supposed to work or what these fantasy calculations are based on?

    I sure as hell didn't get 6000 gold, Mecca doesn't have 6000 gold or Arabia as a whole doesn't have 6000 gold. I'm not entirely sure how much gold I got, but I made as noted about 300g but I forgot to see how much G I had the turn before and if there was something else that gave me gold that turn (pop growth etc). But at best then it was supposed to have given me say 800g? So something in the range of 0 to 800g?

    It's the same with other yields. They just are not reflections of reality in the game. That or there is some super secret Illuminati shadow economy in the game I'm not aware of.


    (EDIT) I decided to take some more notes and investigate for the next spy event, or if it was a few events later. Either way ...

    On Turn 540, the turn before the next spy gold stealing mission.

    I have 2752 gold and I am making 397 gpt.


    c5vox-moneytown-2.jpg c5vox-moneytown-2-sidenotification.jpg

    On turn 541, spy gold stealing mission triggers again ...

    According to the spy notification popup I once again made 6000g from Depok (Indonesia). Neither Depok or Indonesia have 6000g and I didn't get 6000g. The side notification says I made 1200g (which appears to actually be the correct amount of gold I made). So why are they different?

    As Turn 541 starts my treasury is now 4626 gold and I am making 404 gold per turn.

    According to the notifications two borders grew for a total of 120g (60x2) and one citizen was born for 150g.

    4626 (current total gold) - 2752 (previous turns total gold) - 120 (border growth gold) - 150 (citizen born gold) - 404 (gold per turn I made) = 1200g.

    This number corresponds to the side notification. So I did make 1200g from the spying. Which is nice. So what on earth is the popup on about talking about 6000g? That number is five times to large.

    This is Marathon, Huge map, Deity. version 1.0.3 (ie the latest as I write this)
     
    Last edited: Sep 11, 2021
    Dimmy, DeAnno, Pal Laki and 2 others like this.
  9. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch Supporter

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    you on the latest? I fixed some calculations on 1.0
     
  10. looorg

    looorg Prince

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    Yes. This is 1.0.3. I made some more investigations and notifications. The side notification is actually showing the correct gold I stole but the popup window is showing a value that is 5x larger then the stolen or made amount (or the amount shown in the side notifications). See above for calculations and screenshots etc.
     
  11. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch Supporter

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    the notification on the side and the popup are produced by two different functions, with passed values going through iterative functions. I had it working correctly. I’m not sure why it is duplicating again.

    the x5 is either coming from potential or era. What era are you in? What was the city’s potential? One of those two is the culprit.
     
  12. looorg

    looorg Prince

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    Both me Indonesia were in the Renaissance era.

    c5vox-moneytown-3.jpg

    (total spy screen on the turn before it happened, turn540)
     
  13. Bromar1

    Bromar1 King

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    +1 this would be a huge QoL feature
     
  14. looorg

    looorg Prince

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    Changing the colour or something might be a good idea but turn blocking is bad since sometimes I want to wait or hold turn(s) before sending them out. With this I would be forced to send and abort missions which is just as anooying.
     
  15. Solic

    Solic Warlord

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    In what situation would you want to do this? Only thing I can think of is to time a potential city blockade or wonder race sabotage, but currently these things aren't predictable enough anyways. If any such situations would occur more infrequently, then I'd still say it's better to have it be blocked. Ideally you could just "unblock" by sending them to hideout.
     
  16. looorg

    looorg Prince

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    More or less that or if I'm waiting for a spy-quest. It just saves clicks. So while annoying sometimes when you forget to send them it will be equally annoying forcing you to do actions.
     
  17. notaspambot

    notaspambot Warlord

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    Has the kidnapping specialists option stacking with itself been fixed yet, or is that intentional design? When I last tried it in 1.0.1, both the yields and duration would stack at the same time (e.g. +2 yields/15 turns, +4 yields/30 turns, +6 yields/45 turns, etc.). With enough persistence and time, you could get that number into the dozens, while keeping the effect up near-indefinitely.
     
    cerk likes this.
  18. looorg

    looorg Prince

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    I did run a few other missions, with various gold numbers being made. The side notification has always been correct. It's been 600, 800 and 1200g. But the main popup always says I'm making 6000g no matter what. So it might not actually be 5x greater. Just cause it happened to be 5x greater that one time. It just always reports 6000g like it was a hard-coded default value no matter how much gold I actually made.
     
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  19. John.B.C

    John.B.C Prince

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    I guess these new mechanics are here to stay juding by the efforts made to making the spy system more interesting. I really appreciate the effort, BUT I really don't like this new system even if I now have adapted to the change. I think there's too much micromanagement around something which just feels very uninteresting.

    I didn't like the old system either, even though stealing a tech was rewarding enough for it to feel at least ok.

    So I do as I did back then, keep my Spys managing city-states throughout the whole game,and when having enough high level spys, I bring them back to my own cities.
     
  20. cerk

    cerk Warlord

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    Now that spies don't come back to hideout after every mission and some other fixes, I think I like it. It feels more flexible where I get to choose the yield I want at a specific time, and more straightforward than the old as every action has a timer.

    One thing that could be improved is when a spy's cover is blown, they come back to hideout. Oftentimes I want the spy to go back to that city again anyway to spy on them. We can set a 5 turn creating new hideout process like setting up surveillance and avoid the micro of assigning them again, and going through 'traveling', 'establishing surveillance' and all that.

    Another thing I noticed was that when enemy spies steal gold from my treasury, I don't lose any money but they gain whatever they 'stole'. This behaviour does not extend to disrupting production however. I don't mind it because deductions are generally quite unfun but thought I'd mention it.
     

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