ElliotS
Warmonger
There has been discussion in the AI diplomacy thread that defensive pacts can turn into problems when most of the map locks itself up in large defensive blocks. (Often without the player able to find anyone to partner with.)
It has been said that there is very little counter-play available, which makes the option feel overpowered.
Currently there is a long formula that leads to an average of 1 defensive pact wanted, with a potential of many more.
I only see defensive pacts as a problem in those corner-cases where the AIs get real buddy-buddy and form large defensive coalitions.
I will quote some of the arguments made below, but I felt breaking it out of the 18-19th page of a thread into it's own was justified.
My personal solution is to limit defensive pacts to 1, unless the cold war resolution passes which would increase it to 2, or the freedom policy that gets votes for DPs is taken, which would take away the limit for the person who selected it.
This would have no effect most games where defensive pacts are not a problem (Normally AIs want 1 pact.) but would remove the corner-case issues where aggression is totally stalled out by giant walls of AI solidarity.
To be clear though, this is not the specific solution we're voting on, just my take on how to solve it.
It has been said that there is very little counter-play available, which makes the option feel overpowered.
Currently there is a long formula that leads to an average of 1 defensive pact wanted, with a potential of many more.
I only see defensive pacts as a problem in those corner-cases where the AIs get real buddy-buddy and form large defensive coalitions.
I will quote some of the arguments made below, but I felt breaking it out of the 18-19th page of a thread into it's own was justified.
My personal solution is to limit defensive pacts to 1, unless the cold war resolution passes which would increase it to 2, or the freedom policy that gets votes for DPs is taken, which would take away the limit for the person who selected it.
This would have no effect most games where defensive pacts are not a problem (Normally AIs want 1 pact.) but would remove the corner-case issues where aggression is totally stalled out by giant walls of AI solidarity.
To be clear though, this is not the specific solution we're voting on, just my take on how to solve it.
Spoiler Post Quotes(Context) :
Being to anxious to start a thread by myself I figured I'd just ask it here instead.
Anyone else feel like the defense pact spamming of the AI have gone too far? Like as soon as defensive pacts are unlocked, every AI in the game are going to have at least 2 pacts for the rest of the game. It doesn't seem to matter if they're hated or weak or anything like that, they're going to have the defensive pacts anyways.
Compared to this the AI seems to be extremely unwilling to sign defensive pacts with a human player. There are exceptions to this, some games I'm able to sign defensive pacts if I have a relevant tech level and a large standing army, but these situations feels more like exceptions and I can't remember ever signing more than one pact at the same time.
Defensive pacts themselves also do feel extremely strong in civ, acting like full blown alliances, as you are forced to honor them and the aggressor seems to be forced to do all the DoWing mechanically. As soon as an AI neighbor has his free 2+ defensive pacts then any form of diplomacy is just out the window, he can citadel your tiles, spy on you, convert your cities and whatever else he wants, and the only thing you can do about it is declaring a war which probably makes you backstab two of your declared friends and cost you all your trade-routes as well as most of your potential city-states.
Assuming the AI puts defensive pacts into consideration, this might also be why from the mid-game and onward warring in general just seems to slow down (at least between AI civs, since I can't form a defensive pact to save my life I'm still fair game)
Well, enough ranting, am I missing something? Is there a way to deal with these defense-pact spams besides making your neighbor angry and hoping he attacks you first?
Re-posting on this thread... I agree 100%. Once defensive pacts happen I no longer feel like I'm playing against individual nations anymore.
Maybe defensive pacts need to have their length shortened (25 turns on standard time)? I personally don't experience issues with them (recently), but I can understand the problems others have; ultimately I think the dp's are actually just doing they're job by agitating other players (humans included), and dissuading them from using physical force. I think it's just the nature of the feature, and maybe others might be inclined to just play with dp's disabled if that were an option. Maybe set a limit so that a player may only have 1 active dp at a time? It's not really ideal, but people might enjoy that kind of thing.
My only gripe has always been that there's no way to see how many turns remain in dp's between AI (although I understand the reasoning behind this as well). It's just an annoyance for me.
The only way around this I’ve found is to repeatedly have a unit target an “enemy” each turn to see if the DP is still active.
Don’t sanctions end trade deals? I’ve noticed that if you sanction a Civ in a DP the alliance stays active, so maybe we can remove that protection? It’s unlikely that a warmonger is going to have enough votes to brute force sanctions through the WC, but if they do get it passed I think this would be a nice option against DP’s.
I've tried this a few times, but never managed to pass the vote, sanctions in general are really hard to pass.
Anyways I don't think this is an exclusively warmonger problem, if the AI (and I assume they do) takes defensive pacts into consideration before striking DoWs, this is probably why AI warfare just dies down after the classical era.
The way I would like to handle it (which is probably impossible) would be not having the DPs automatically put you into war, let's say Arabia got a DP with Babylon and Carthage, and Denmark has a DP with Egypt.
Denmark declares war on Arabia, Babylon and Carthage gets a prompt (Declare war on Denmark or the DP is over and they suffer diplomatic penalties), Babylon having a declaration of friendship with Denmark refuses to get involved but Carthage does DoW Denmark. When Carthage DoWs Denmark, Egypt gets the same prompt that Babylon and Carthage did (DoW Carthage or suffer diplo penalties).
Yeah it probably sounds complicated, but the point is that there are a ton of situations where you're not explicitly forced to uphold promises in Civ5, I don't see why DPs should be the one situation where you're forced to.
Longer durations give both parties time to coordinate and act based on the established diplomatic reality. I'm not sure how much shorter durations might impact the AI's ability to act effectively. Another thing to consider is spam. The shorter the duration, the more notifications the player needs to pay attention to. Personally I'd love to have an "auto-renew" option for diplomatic agreements where, if both parties have indicated they want to continue the deal, the deal automatically renews. It would only need to be renegotiated if either party unchecked the auto-renew for that deal. Not sure how this would look UI wise, but I really hate constantly needing to re-up my friendships manually. It's just busywork unless the AI doesn't want to continue.
Well currently DP are really annoying as the AI usually gets ~3 while the human gets maybe 1 or 2 if they have a really good military, otherwise none. So if you ever declare war then suddenly you're at war with your allies as well. You can kinda help if you denounce them, but then it takes time for your allies to turn on your enemy (and sometimes they don't, so you risk that), and then more time for the DP to expire, which is why the length should be decreased. I would gladly take a more strategic, fun game, but have to click a couple more times. I would also adjust the AI willingness to do a DP, as they seem to have way too many, even with their enemies.
@Recursive There is one possibility. It is also how defense pacts usually worked historically in real life. It would also let to more sensible, consistent diplomacy and alliances. Make them specific to an enemy. I other words make them not general, triggered when anyone declares on one of them, but respective to and triggered only if their mutual enemy or power which they fear declares. It would be more the reversal of do you want to declare on someone. But I don't think it's possible to change so I don't dare to ask for it. Just reducing the number should suffice.