Poll: Should the Pyramids be unlocked by Liberty?

[Geppenguin]

Let us consider the arguments for and against the Pyramids being unlocked by Liberty:

For
It gives two workers and increases tile improvement speed, and therefore synergises with the Liberty tree

Against
The Pyramids, built to venerate the Pharaohs, who were essentially god-kings, are the very antithesis of liberty!
Egypt will almost never build the Pyramids because it will automatically go for the Tradition tree (for the wonder bonus from Aristocracy, if nothing else).
The Tradition tree has an Egyptian sculptor carving hieroglyphs, the icon for Aristocracy is a Pyramid, and yet the Pyramids aren't under Tradition?!

Wouldn't it be better to give the Pyramid effect to another wonder instead? Or put the Temple of Artemis as the wonder for Liberty? Or the Parthenon (effect still unknown)? Greeks are definitely more associated with Liberty than the Egyptians (who granted had impressive human rights, but even so worshipped their king as a god).

 

[TheMarshmallowBear]

Not this discussion again....

 

[Louis XXIV]

I would have preferred the Temple of Artemis to be a Liberty wonder. However, I concede that the Pyramids are clearly the best choice strategy-wise. It's just that they're a bad choice flavor-wise.

Then again, there's a good argument that Liberty and Tradition should be switched. I think it was just the Wonder building bonus that led them to choose tradition as small, liberty as big.

 

[Talcove]

In terms of what the wonder grants, yes, The Pyramids should certainly go to Liberty. This is one of those cases where gameplay trumps realism.

 

[Geppenguin]

In terms of what the wonder grants, yes, The Pyramids should certainly go to Liberty. This is one of those cases where gameplay trumps realism.

Yes, but in this case the decision to ignore reality is as glaring as say making Prora unlockable by Freedom instead of Autocracy. The effect can just as easily apply to the Freedom ideology tenets, but flavour-wise, totally out of whack.

 

[Rub'Rum]

This is one of those cases where gameplay trumps realism.

This is basically the answer to over half of the complaints I have ever read about Civ in general, for years.. It's also why I don't read these sorts of threads much anymore.

I do concede that in this case, it's weird that Egypt will most likely never build the pyramids. Although who knows, maybe it'll make some people develop a wide strategy for Egypt.

 

[joncnunn]

Yes, but only because what it grants are workers (& faster worker speed)

 

[TheMarshmallowBear]

Realism doesn't have a strong defense in Civ 5, it's a game where Ghandi dropes nukes on you, I mean c'mon.

 

[I_qua_I]

I don't agree withe the OP's against section. Egypt will have plenty of opportunity to build it. I've stated this in another thread but Egypt is probably better going wide than tall. They are nice tall because the wonder bonus from tradition stacks with their UA but this is not all Egypt has to offer and it really is a very shallow reading of the civ that would lead one to deduce that this redundancy encourages a tradition start most of the time. Everything else about them screams wide. Their UU is a super fast effective defense if you are popping cities out left and right early game. More importantly though, their UB is probably one of the best in the game. The +2 happiness is amazing and makes Egypt one of the few civs that can really be effective at creating and sustaining a large empire from the early stages of the game. (It's also maintenance free.) The UA when going wide is still useful. By choosing tradition you forgo maximizing all these other things.

For some reason people tend to take the UA of a civ as more representitive of them or their playstyle. A more holistic view will likely reveal some nice alternatives.

I voted yes...

 

[GeoModder]

Realism doesn't have a strong defense in Civ 5, it's a game where Ghandi dropes nukes on you, I mean c'mon.

In reality he was kind of a wicked guy though...

 

[GustavAdolf270]

It is not that un-realistic for the pyramids to be built from a social policy tree that promotes wide settlement and some form of liberty. The primary reason the great pyramids of Giza were built was not for religious reasons but for political ones. By creation such a large work force the leaders of Egypt at that time knew this was a way to unite the WIDE-spread population of Egypt under one rule. Workers came from all over the kingdoms of Egypt which helped the solidification of the unification of upper and lower. It was not slaves but seasonal workers that constructed the pyramids at Giza. In the end it is not that preposterous for the Pyramids to be in this tree.

 

[TheMarshmallowBear]

It is not that un-realistic for the pyramids to be built from a social policy tree that promotes wide settlement and some form of liberty. The primary reason the great pyramids of Giza were built was not for religious reasons but for political ones. By creation such a large work force the leaders of Egypt at that time knew this was a way to unite the WIDE-spread population of Egypt under one rule. Workers came from all over the kingdoms of Egypt which helped the solidification of the unification of upper and lower. It was not slaves but seasonal workers that constructed the pyramids at Giza. In the end it is not that preposterous for the Pyramids to be in this tree.

I think I want to marry you...

 

[RealHuhn]

Egypt is one of the best Liberty civs in the game. A free +2 happiness per city due to the burial tomb which can be built with a 50% production boost when you go Piety. Perfect for city spam.

So really, Pyramids and Egypt synergize well in BNW although I do see your point, of course.

 

[Louis XXIV]

In terms of what the wonder grants, yes, The Pyramids should certainly go to Liberty. This is one of those cases where gameplay trumps realism.

I think it's possible to balance the two, though. If you have three wonders. A is realistic, but not good for gameplay, B is good for gameplay but unrealistic, and C is good for gameplay and realistic, you can pick C. This is true even if A is better than C for gameplay as long as both are good.

 

[Verified_Confection_Being]

OP, You're certainly not gunna be building the Pyramids with that traditional argument of yours

We have evidence that the Pharoahs represented themselves as Gods. We don't have so much that the people actively worshipped them religiously as opposed to politically. That's really a question more to do with peoples social realities than what's inscribed in political histories, and much harder to ascertain so far back.

But what i can tell you is people haven't got more clever (probably the opposite in fact...) in the last 10,000 years, and a lot of people in Egypt will have ascertained that the Pharoahs were not in fact God's and consequently did not worship them as almighty God Kings. To me, it comes across more as a kind of legitimising thing. Like how all politicians these days want to appeal to the common man by dressing down (eg not wearing ties at the G8). They want to appeal to their people by creating an image. I wouldn't say the Pharoah's were inherently anti-libertarian purely based on how they present themselves, as you have done.

 

[Snes]

The issue you should be taking is the fact that the flavor of the Pyramids' benefit is focused on their construction rather than their actual function or purpose. The Pyramids were built using highly efficient labor efforts, but they didn't increase those efforts by any measure after they were built. If you can think of a different ancient wonder that fit the flavor better, I'm all ears.

 

[ImperialChaos]

The historical aspect of the Pyramids have no relevance to what it does in the game. It goes very well with the Liberty policy tree despite the actual Pyramids (Pyramid of Giza) being built for tyrannical pharaohs. That said they could change the Pyramid's bonus all together. This is the first Civ game where it gave this kind of bonus I believe: in the others it gave a government bonus. Is there another ancient wonder that could replace the Pyramids worker spawning ability? The Banaue Rice Terraces, maybe?

 

[TheMarshmallowBear]

The historical aspect of the Pyramids have no relevance to what it does in the game. It goes very well with the Liberty policy tree despite the actual Pyramids (Pyramid of Giza) being built for tyrannical pharaohs. That said they could change the Pyramid's bonus all together. This is the first Civ game where it gave this kind of bonus I believe: in the others it gave a government bonus. Is there another ancient wonder that could replace the Pyramids worker spawning ability? The Banaue Rice Terraces, maybe?

Actually in Civ 3 the Pyramids granted free Granaries in all cities.

In a way, if you think about it Ancient and Classical era are simply too cluttered with wonders (if you count in the Ancient Worlds), the first few turns I spend on beelining for Library, Pyramids, Terractora, and probably Parthenon depending on what it does, and if I have Quarries then Mausolleum as well.

From realism point of view, sure, Liberty does not fit Pyramids
But from a game point of view, it does, and there's no doubt that that's what the devs went for.

 

[JSMCAG]

This is the first Civ game where it gave this kind of bonus I believe: in the others it gave a government bonus.

Actually, from what I understand, only Civilization IV gave said bonus (all civics unlocked, if I'm not mistaken).
Other versions (maybe not all) gave... a free Granary on all cities (or something close to it).
...
Yeah.

Sincerely, even if Civilization V's bonus is still not perfect, from what I could gather, this is the closest to their actual history than any before (after all, the Pyramids didn't unlock Democracy for Ancient Egypt, nor did it store GRAIN! ).

 

[Crafty Bison]

This is basically the answer to over half of the complaints I have ever read about Civ in general, for years.. It's also why I don't read these sorts of threads much anymore.

I do concede that in this case, it's weird that Egypt will most likely never build the pyramids. Although who knows, maybe it'll make some people develop a wide strategy for Egypt.

It already exists, and revolves around the burial tomb hapiness. It's not quite as good as a Mayan/Arabian ICS but perfectly viable if you get a lots of poor quality land rather than a little good land. UA still gives a help if you decide to go for NC, and with BNW the only people going for the pyramids will not have the tradition wonder bonus.

In general, I really like it when civs' wonders coincide with their playstyle, but it's not like it's unusual for them to make them incompatible. Byzantium and Hagia Sofia is great, but Siam and Angkor Wat (a wonder for wide civs, and a rubbish one at that)? Celts and Stonehenge (more of a luxury than a requirement)? Maya and Chichen Itza? (CI is great with anyone but Maya aren't top of the list of those who need it) GnK France and Louvre? Or Notre Dame over Forbidden Palace for that matter? China and Terracota Army (actually, anyone with TA)? With this in mind, even from flavour perspective, I think there are bigger fish to fry than this, though I suppose this are of the ame can be quite subjective.