Poll: Teocalli faith per kill is currently 5. What should it be (leaving its other bonuses in tact)

[MIS]

Many think Teocalli's are overpowered. I'm thinking of proposing, in next month's congress, to reduce their power.
Currently, they give:
+2 faith per turn
+15 XP for Land/Water/Air Units
+1 Military Supply
+25% Religious Pressure
-1 Unhappiness from Distress
+5 faith per kill

@hokath already created a modmod here: https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/hokaths-proposals.690601/ which contains the following, very comprehensive changes to Teocalli:
"Teocalli remake to sort out Faith engine runaway: -
Faith on kill to 20 GAP only if the Unit is created in that City, scaling; -
loses XP; -
20% Prod to Units in City; -
Loses Supply, moved to Gurdwara; -
Pressure increased to 50%; -
+1 Happiness base

@hokath is much more experienced than me, but I don't know if enough people will have played enough by the congress starting next month to support his changes. Therefore I wanted to gauge, if we just changed the faith per kill, what would be appropriate.

 

[azum4roll]

We need a balance between tall and wide.
So using ingame wordings:

• When a Unit created by this City defeats a Military Unit: +5 Faith
• When an owned Unit defeats a Military Unit: +2 Faith

 

[MIS]

We need a balance between tall and wide.
So using ingame wordings:

• When a Unit created by this City defeats a Military Unit: +5 Faith
• When an owned Unit defeats a Military Unit: +2 Faith

Please confirm: Currently it gives +5 fpt for "owned Unit" and 0 for "created by this city". You think it should be +2fpt for owned, and an additional +5fpt for a unit created by the city? Please confirm, and I'll add an option (and similar) to the poll.

 

[azum4roll]

Please confirm: Currently it gives +5 fpt for "owned Unit" and 0 for "created by this city". You think it should be +2fpt for owned, and an additional +5fpt for a unit created by the city? Please confirm, and I'll add an option (and similar) to the poll.

Yes. Assuming you have Teocallis built in every city, you get (2x number of cities + 5) Faith per kill.

If you only have the one from Chichen Itza (I really don't like that one btw), you only get 7 Faith.

 

[MIS]

Yes. Assuming you have Teocallis built in every city, you get (2x number of cities + 5) Faith per kill.

If you only have the one from Chichen Itza (I really don't like that one btw), you only get 5 Faith.

don't understand. either chichen = 5 + 2 = 7, or, total = 2(n-1) +5

 

[FinMc]

The last few years have been brutal for warmongers, first god of war gets nerfed, now this too?

I find the faith balanced in early and mid game but I do usually have infinity faith by late game I think? Have not played in a few months. I do find it's more work to keep my religion around in the 4.2X patches.

 

[hokath]

Just thinking about the Azum one. If you give Faith from two different tables I think you will get two different notifications? Might become a bit spammy.

But besides that minor problem, when I looked at this I came to the conclusion you need to take a holistic view. Firstly because of the free building from Chicken Pizza, but also with the overall balance of the building. If you have +XP (note particular problem with the Chichen Itza) and +supply as bonuses, then it should give a lot less Faith than if you move them off.

Given there are other Faith buildings that have military flavor (Gurdwara, Order) that are often considered weak, I think it makes sense to spread around the strong bonuses and focus the military benefit that remains more strongly. So in my version I made the decision the Teocalli would be for training Units and them getting you Faith (hence the local bonus). (I have the "wide" version elsewhere, gated behind the Reformation)
I then added some war-adjacent religious bonuses like some more Pressure (aggressive) and Happiness (good for expansion).

 

[looorg]

The last few years have been brutal for warmongers, first god of war gets nerfed, now this too?

I find the faith balanced in early and mid game but I do usually have infinity faith by late game I think? Have not played in a few months. I do find it's more work to keep my religion around in the 4.2X patches.

But isn't that a different issue. You need faith early, to get things and to buy things. But once those are done. The accumulation just starts. There is nothing much to do with it. Yes you can build your missionaries and wait for the odd prophet. But beyond that it's just a nothing number that keeps growing until it resets and then it grows again. Unless you have Zealotry (or a few other pics) then you have nothing to do with it, or you are Spain or one of those civs that have a constant outlet for their faith. Cause you will run out of religion upgrades and/or buildings very early (to mid) of the game.

So if you could mountains of faith in the end? It does nothing. It's pointless basically. It's all about the early to mid generation. When it is still useful or have an impact. It's that or I guess lets have more things to do with the faith then to watch the number grow until it eventually spits out a Prophet and then restarts again.

 

[MIS]

But isn't that a different issue. You need faith early, to get things and to buy things. But once those are done. The accumulation just starts. There is nothing much to do with it. Yes you can build your missionaries and wait for the odd prophet. But beyond that it's just a nothing number that keeps growing until it resets and then it grows again. Unless you have Zealotry (or a few other pics) then you have nothing to do with it, or you are Spain or one of those civs that have a constant outlet for their faith. Cause you will run out of religion upgrades and/or buildings very early (to mid) of the game.

So if you could mountains of faith in the end? It does nothing. It's pointless basically. It's all about the early to mid generation. When it is still useful or have an impact. It's that or I guess lets have more things to do with the faith then to watch the number grow until it eventually spits out a Prophet and then restarts again.

If I'm taking Teocalli I make sure I have an outlet for faith based on another belief, whether that's military units, "To the Glory of God" for great people, culture/science buildings, or something else.

 

[MIS]

Just thinking about the Azum one. If you give Faith from two different tables I think you will get two different notifications? Might become a bit spammy.

But besides that minor problem, when I looked at this I came to the conclusion you need to take a holistic view. Firstly because of the free building from Chicken Pizza, but also with the overall balance of the building. If you have +XP (note particular problem with the Chichen Itza) and +supply as bonuses, then it should give a lot less Faith than if you move them off.

Given there are other Faith buildings that have military flavor (Gurdwara, Order) that are often considered weak, I think it makes sense to spread around the strong bonuses and focus the military benefit that remains more strongly. So in my version I made the decision the Teocalli would be for training Units and them getting you Faith (hence the local bonus). (I have the "wide" version elsewhere, gated behind the Reformation)
I then added some war-adjacent religious bonuses like some more Pressure (aggressive) and Happiness (good for expansion).

I agree with your points. I do think there is a place for having a defensive military for turtling (Order) and for offensive (Teocalli). I agree they should be balanced, and there should be at least two viable choices for offensive military.

 

[FinMc]

If I'm taking Teocalli I make sure I have an outlet for faith based on another belief, whether that's military units, "To the Glory of God" for great people, culture/science buildings, or something else.

Yeah you need a late game faith dump with the Teocalli

 

[paul_soryu]

In my latest game in the very late game with endless war I have conquered a civ which had Teocallis in all of their cities (~10 cities), and suddenly I got from slowly saving up Faith to buy a Great Person to 30000 Faith I have nothing to spend on. So yeah it seems a bit overpowered. Even two of them boosted my Faith generation significantly.

Other idea besides the proposed ones would be to lessen the bonus per kill with each new Era or every second Era. The bonus not only scales with the number of cities, but also with Era, because the number of units inflates massively in the late game, so I think overall Faith gain would stay the same if it was scaling downwards. The bonus would be good in mid game, but still stay relevant in late game, without being overpowered. If you took Teocallis then you probably also have conquered 1-2 civs by the time you're in late game which gives you even more Teocallis. I don't know which exact era +5 was balanced around, or if it was just more or less an arbitrary number.

 

[azum4roll]

If you give Faith from two different tables I think you will get two different notifications? Might become a bit spammy.

One instant yield type = one notification, for the ones that are sent at the end of a turn. All others are one notification per trigger.

 

[Voremonger]

In my opinion granting a bonus per City upon killing a Unit is simply a design mistake since the rate at which you're going to kill Units also scales with how many Cities you have. It doesn't matter how you choose the numbers, it's either going to be useless in most scenarios or overpowered in those scenarios where it's good. Rome previously had something similar where you got yields in every City when you kill a Unit and that was changed for presumably the same reason.

 

[redrum68]

In my opinion granting a bonus per City upon killing a Unit is simply a design mistake since the rate at which you're going to kill Units also scales with how many Cities you have. It doesn't matter how you choose the numbers, it's either going to be useless in most scenarios or overpowered in those scenarios where it's good. Rome previously had something similar where you got yields in every City when you kill a Unit and that was changed for presumably the same reason.

Agree. That's why I would change it to instead just give a larger amount of faith in the city the unit was created in and probably remove the free one from Chichen Itza.

 

[azum4roll]

Agree. That's why I would change it to instead just give a larger amount of faith in the city the unit was created in and probably remove the free one from Chichen Itza.

Doesn't change the fact that modded wonders can still give a free Teocalli and the building pretty much works just as well in one city as in every city if you take away the yields.

 

[redrum68]

Doesn't change the fact that modded wonders can still give a free Teocalli and the building pretty much works just as well in one city as in every city if you take away the yields.

Well generally the modded wonders are rarely balanced so not sure it matters that much. But the better change is what Hokath's modmod does but I figured that's beyond this poll.

 

[azum4roll]

I'm unsure of the implications that the GAP spam will give. None of us even know how much 1 is worth.