Poll to Rename the IOT Forum

[Thorvald of Lym]

Ailed, you're assuming Lucky would accept even a unanimous vote.

 

[Luckymoose]

Ailed, you're assuming Lucky would accept even a unanimous vote.

I would, but I won't accept a rigged vote, timed, with limited options not determined before hand, ignoring a vast number of people still active, still searching, who don't want what is being proposed by a small minority and voted on by people other than them. But, hey, what do I know? I only talk to the actual people so alienated by such ridiculous, one-sided, and pointless exercises as these.

Of course Ailed doesn't understand that. He didn't last time, either, if you go look at the previous attempts to do this, by the same minority, pushing the same propaganda for their own ego boosts. He lives in a make believe world where NESers don't exist, our work doesn't exist, and nothing we say matters. And that's where he wants to be, cause it's easier for him to justify his positions from that plane.

I remind you of the Three Times Yes vote, and how swimmingly such polls can go if you rig it.

 

[Ailedhoo]

I guess not only is Thor right to alert me but also:

1) Are these people you claim are not speaking the ones by chance to have decided to stick to the Frontier?

2) I find it amusing the one who makes the most drama out of these affairs once again is conducting personal attacks. I wonder why the mods are not keen on you Lucky?

3) Francis Urquhart would note that it is unwise for those living in glass houses to throw stones; for instance those who accuse me of living in their own world, while making conspiracy theories about the forum staff and thinking those who do not oppose the merge are shrills working for their own plots.

4) Rig votes? Three Times Yes comparison? Your so committed to petty sub-forum nationalism that you are now making such comedy? I expect this to be in a post being mocked by the goons of Something Awful, not a post by a NESer; this is getting funnier by the moment.

 

[Luckymoose]

I guess not only is Thor right to alert me but also:

1) Are these people you claim are not speaking the ones by chance to have decided to stick to the Frontier?

2) I find it amusing the one who makes the most drama out of these affairs once again is conducting personal attacks. I wonder why the mods are not keen on you Lucky?

3) Francis Urquhart would note that it is unwise for those living in glass houses to throw stones; for instance those who accuse me of living in their own world, while making conspiracy theories about the forum staff and thinking those who do not oppose the merge are shrills working for their own plots.

4) Rig votes? Three Times Yes comparison? Your so committed to petty sub-forum nationalism that you are now making such comedy? I expect this to be in a post being mocked by the goons of Something Awful, not a post by a NESer; this is getting funnier by the moment.

1.) No one ever stuck to anything. This is the problem with the community pushing mergers and coercions, they fail to under the concept that a community isn't locked to a subforum, but is entirely separate from that. IOT has IOTchat, that is probably where, like our own off-forum chatting (be through steam, aim, or irc) a lot of the activity actually happens in planning games, discussing them, working together, etc. URL nationalism is the problem here. To assume we are so small and limited that if one doesn't post in a subforum one isn't active, which is entirely untrue and was never the case in NESing history, or, I imagine, IOT's.

2.) I don't make the drama, I respond to it. A lot of NESers have decided to completely give up talking at the people pushing this because it never goes anywhere except down a path of people calling those NESers liars or exiles or some other demonization that turns them off. I don't care what you call me, however, and I'll stand up to whatever nonsense I see, both for NES and for IOT (if such a reason occurred).

3.) No conspiracy theories. Rightly known and logged experiences with these individuals. We have saved PMs, logs from IRC, logs from other chat services. If it was a conspiracy theory then the whole of NESing (save a few who went to IOT) wouldn't have upped and stopped posting here as suddenly and thoroughly as it had. I didn't even lead or push that, I simply followed, as many did, when the evidence was presented. But that still gives no right to make accusations about NES itself in favor of IOT.

4.) Considering the last time this went on you said that a +1 vote was a supermajority, what you have to say about polls or community activity matters very little to me or anyone. You won't admit you're wrong, and that's fine, that's cool, no one cares. But what should happen is you do your thing in IOT and stop with the repeated, slanderous assaults on another hobby just so you can get your rocks off. It's been going on for years now, in a cycle that never ends. Just stop. You have the power here. You literally have all the power. IOT started this poll. They started the last poll. They'll start the next poll. Individuals who didn't consult the NESing community at large run these jokes, and it's tiresome.

I know you seek to win, and it's all a competition to you. I get that, straight up. But this is not a competition, this is art, this is community, this is friendship, and this is history. This is about people you've never even spoken to, because all your contact outside of IOT has been inflammatory. You judge the hobby as something you have a right to play with, a right to coerce, a right to exploit, because you've never been part of the NESing community to see what it is about. You don't come asking politely to be shown why we think there are differences, or why dozens of NESers would rather wait for a TNES or other NES than join IOT, and who have come back instantly upon hearing the news.

There is a completely, undying, unyielding lack of respect for the people you've never taken the time to get to know. And that, at it's core, is why this is not democratic, this not okay or desired or productive or in any way going to magically boost your playerbases with the people who never cared of a separate community to begin with. It isn't elitism to want to play and collaborate with people you know, you trust, you respect. It's human. Merger exists only to antagonize those who don't want it and won't assimilate on their own. If someone wants to play in IOT, it isn't hard. So why do you repeatedly seek to make what works broken? Why do you want to create more conflict? Why can't you just say no to it, and do you and let others do them?

There's no point in me writing this, because you won't understand it and you'll spit back with something nonsensical again, so it isn't really for you, but for other people who care and respect each other. For people who produce not wanting their work taken by a few and done with as those few please. The real world is like that, and our two hobbies should be intelligent and wise enough to say no to the madness and just be cool.

 

[CivOasis]

That's not how this works, and the merger was openly put off the table already.

Without at all getting into the debate of whether or not it should happen and who does or does not want this, could I ask where this was actually done by administration? We know that they were, at some point, considering it as a result of the polling (again, without getting into what that actually says or should say), and I hadn't seen where that had changed.

 

[Terran Empress]

Well, I know this doesn't really matter right now, as everyone is too busy yelling at each other.

but a name that was suggested on IOT chat that I actually really did like was "Grand Strategy Roleplaying games"

I don't recall who suggested it, my instincts say Chief Designer but I could very easily be wrong, and if you came up with it, please speak up.

 

[Omega124]

Well, I know this doesn't really matter right now, as everyone is too busy yelling at each other.

but a name that was suggested on IOT chat that I actually really did like was "Grand Strategy Roleplaying games"

I don't recall who suggested it, my instincts say Chief Designer but I could very easily be wrong, and if you came up with it, please speak up.

GS is a very narrow descriptor, which doesn't cover CYOAs, more experimental games like cityiot or world of media, games more focused on rp like IdIOT, etc, etc. Just basiclly only the narratively barebone, competitive IOTs with complex mechanics.

Please no.

 

[Ailedhoo]

The flames have risen indeed.

1.) No one ever stuck to anything. This is the problem with the community pushing mergers and coercions, they fail to under the concept that a community isn't locked to a subforum, but is entirely separate from that. IOT has IOTchat, that is probably where, like our own off-forum chatting (be through steam, aim, or irc) a lot of the activity actually happens in planning games, discussing them, working together, etc. URL nationalism is the problem here. To assume we are so small and limited that if one doesn't post in a subforum one isn't active, which is entirely untrue and was never the case in NESing history, or, I imagine, IOT's.

For starters presuming one does not know is nice fallacy work on your part, especially how you shape your entire 'opposition.' Forum groups have branches but they also tend to have a HQ or rather more a foundation stone for management. "URL nationalism" (may I point out how ridicules that terminology be) is quite a commented considering the us and them approach being adopted by the flame fighter I am speaking towards. IOT effort outside CFC tended to be difficult in nature; there was the game on the Paradox forums and I myself did set up a game on Beyond the Lampshade but to my disappointment there had little co-ordination and desire to spread the game. Certain NESers meanwhile had a shift to the Frontier which resulted in a silence in the NES CFC sub-forum and a influx of NESers into the IOT sub-forum, which suggested a leaving of the bedrock, along with a question: if NES is not the sub-forum then why be the merge such a... passionate obsession for you to antagonise?

2.) I don't make the drama, I respond to it.

Says the one who uses fallacy, brings mud fights and has a rather infamous reputation; I attempted to bring figures to the Frontier to try Fallen Star but they felt your presence made it inhospitable.

I will go on to the 3rd issue for sanity sake.

3.) No conspiracy theories.

O really? The mods are not some villains plotting the forced merge of IOT and NES then?

Rightly known and logged experiences with these individuals.We have saved PMs, logs from IRC, logs from other chat services.

Chat servers you say? Not in direct posted statements?

If it was a conspiracy theory then the whole of NESing (save a few who went to IOT) wouldn't have upped and stopped posting here as suddenly and thoroughly as it had. I didn't even lead or push that, I simply followed, as many did, when the evidence was presented. But that still gives no right to make accusations about NES itself in favor of IOT.

Conspiracy theories can generate actions, as tragically conducted with the anti-vaccination movement and the renewal of diseases that were going into decline. A lot can take up a conspiracy theory.

Put please continue to psychological project the idea that this is about IOT trying to go over NES; it is amusing.

4.) Considering the last time this went on you said that a +1 vote was a supermajority, what you have to say about polls or community activity matters very little to me or anyone.

It was a few percent last time; I was using the Scottish referendum as a case base...

...but then forum games are clearly more serious than referendums about real nations.

But even if I were wrong this time the poll is now 72.73% in favour; that is hardly +1 any more.

You won't admit you're wrong, and that's fine, that's cool, no one cares.

What consideration does this statement remind me of?

But what should happen is you do your thing in IOT and stop with the repeated, slanderous assaults on another hobby just so you can get your rocks off.

O my.

It's been going on for years now, in a cycle that never ends.

That may be because there has been a push incremental in support for merging, not because of any plots to take away your games.

Just stop.

We didn't start the fire
It was always burning
Since the world's been turning
We didn't start the fire
No we didn't light it
But we tried to fight it

You have the power here.

I am the one pulling the strings? O my!

You literally have all the power. IOT started this poll. They started the last poll. They'll start the next poll. Individuals who didn't consult the NESing community at large run these jokes, and it's tiresome.

<nuke> has played NES before taking part in NESIOT games in the IOT subforum; it is hardly simply the plot of the IOTs. If it be a conspiracy it is one that involves both forums against those who treat hobbies like nationalism, a rather amusing notion. <nuke> has the right to set the poll, just as one has the rights to set up shop in the Frontier and to have dual accounting or simply stick to the one sub-forum.

I know you seek to win, and it's all a competition to you. I get that, straight up. But this is not a competition, this is art, this is community, this is friendship, and this is history. This is about people you've never even spoken to, because all your contact outside of IOT has been inflammatory. You judge the hobby as something you have a right to play with, a right to coerce, a right to exploit, because you've never been part of the NESing community to see what it is about. You don't come asking politely to be shown why we think there are differences, or why dozens of NESers would rather wait for a TNES or other NES than join IOT, and who have come back instantly upon hearing the news.

There is a completely, undying, unyielding lack of respect for the people you've never taken the time to get to know. And that, at it's core, is why this is not democratic, this not okay or desired or productive or in any way going to magically boost your playerbases with the people who never cared of a separate community to begin with. It isn't elitism to want to play and collaborate with people you know, you trust, you respect. It's human. Merger exists only to antagonize those who don't want it and won't assimilate on their own. If someone wants to play in IOT, it isn't hard. So why do you repeatedly seek to make what works broken? Why do you want to create more conflict? Why can't you just say no to it, and do you and let others do them?

Competition? Hahaha... you think this is some grand project I have? In truth the merge has only occurred; formed from the splinters of the migration.

To put it bluntly if IOT was erased from the web I would not declare the end of days; I see it as a hobby, not as a form of nationalism which I flame others over or pretend I am superior to another sub-forum because to one other. In gaming the idea of superiority because of what ones plays should be mocked at all levels. It is also mockable to conduct psychological protections.

There's no point in me writing this, because you won't understand it and you'll spit back with something nonsensical again, so it isn't really for you, but for other people who care and respect each other. For people who produce not wanting their work taken by a few and done with as those few please. The real world is like that, and our two hobbies should be intelligent and wise enough to say no to the madness and just be cool.

Then why bother? Why get support over a merge? To compare to the real world...



...are you serious? Still continue to pretend this is about IOT seeking to take away your gamers; then continue to insist your not acting like a bloody conspiracy theorist.

 

[NinjaCow64]

When was the merger "put off the table"? I can find no official (mod) posts that support this.

 

[Thlayli]

It's all over these two threads, dude, just look for Birdjaguar and BSmith and Lefty's posts indicating their thoughts on the matter.

While personally, I don't support a merge right now, I think a new forum name and working towards a new identity would go a long way towards encouraging people like myself to post in IOT. I'm a supporter of the Narrative Strategy Games idea because it leaves the door open to cooperation, while NESIOT seems more like IOT is trying to take the NES name to replace a wonderful forum with something else.

That might just be an emotional reaction on my part, but it's an honest one.

From a more logical perspective, since a merge isn't going to occur, selling NESIOT as a forum rename to the mods (setting aside the previous confusion over having a NES and a NESIOT forum) might encounter some opposition, since the mods are already opposed to the merge, and might think it confusing and redundant. The community choice will only actually result in a rename if the mods think it's a good idea. It would be better, in my opinion, to have 'NES' and 'IOT' to remain as colloquial monikers that people can still attach to their games in a newly renamed Narrative Strategy Games forum, one that gives us all a fresh start. I'd certainly support Narrative Games along the same lines.

The mods have already hinted at the fact that a 'NESIOT' option would be less well received than a more descriptive forum title.

 

[Nuka-sama]

Hi all The poll will close tomorrow at 8 PM PST, if you haven't voted yet I encourage you to do so. I think there are arguments for both a descriptive name (Like NSG, NG, SG, ect.) and for a name that more identifies the community (NESIOT, NES/IOT, and quite frankly I don't think anyone would be confused between a forum called that and a forum that also is called Never Ending Stories), and after this poll I will contact the mods and see how they wish to go from here

 

[Thlayli]

NESIOT in no way identifies the community. It's a hamfisted, haphazard attempt to merge two communities without a coherent name that actually says what they do, or what they are about.

It doesn't mean anything, it doesn't say anything, and it isn't even an acronym. It's two acronyms thrown together to make one even less coherent pseudoacronym. Sure, you can say that it makes sense because people know what NES and IOT are, but the idea of explaining it to a newcomer makes it seem a little ridiculous. If someone new is just browsing the forums, and they see 'Narrative Games' or 'Narrative Strategy Games' or 'Story Games', they know, instantly, what they're getting into. It's much more accessible.

I do wish this poll had been structured a little better and had more options, like the 10 that you were initially proposing before you rushed to launch this one. But since we're here now, I think this says it all:

I think words are better than acronyms, for descriptive purposes.

 

[Thorvald of Lym]

To be fair, Thayli, back in the days of Abaddon spamming NES ads everywhere I tried, twice, to figure out what it was and how one played, and even after reading the introductory sticky I never actually understood it because the 'guide' always amounted to "Read through a thread or look at these example orders", and to a complete stranger with no background in forum roleplay none of it makes any sense. ('Welcome to IOT' isn't much better in this regard, but at least it starts on the premise that you're playing a game.)

So a bland acronym and non-descriptive description aren't exactly challenging precedent.

 

[Thlayli]

To be fair, Thayli, back in the days of Abaddon spamming NES ads everywhere I tried, twice, to figure out what it was and how one played, and even after reading the introductory sticky I never actually understood it because the 'guide' always amounted to "Read through a thread or look at these example orders", and to a complete stranger with no background in forum roleplay none of it makes any sense. ('Welcome to IOT' isn't much better in this regard, but at least it starts on the premise that you're playing a game.)

So a bland acronym and non-descriptive description aren't exactly challenging precedent.

That's a good point.

NES was always very conflicted as to whether it was a story or a game, and IOT's definitely leaned harder in the game direction, especially towards the end. But NESes are pretty much the same as IOTs, with PM'ed orders and spending, moving troops around, doing diplomacy, etc. That makes me want to look at the IOT Guide to figure out how to introduce IOTers to my NES.

The only thing that really separated NES and IOT is that some NESers wrote long, long, looooong story arcs to go with their nations. But that story-writing element was always optional, and plenty of people roleplayed pretty much the same in both forums. Which is why we have so many people like Bair, SK, Grandkhan, etc. I suppose my point is, just because it was confusing in the past doesn't mean that it should be confusing in the future, now that we have the opportunity to actually make some changes.

 

[Lefty Scaevola]

When was the merger "put off the table"? I can find no official (mod) posts that support this.

I would not say it is completely off the table, just that none of the staff posting here in the current discussion in Site Feedback have yet seen any significant benefit to doing so. Like the former moderator EQandcivfanantic, I do not (yet) see cross-pollination or activity benefits from merging all the dead threads of NES with the active threads of IoT, and leaving them separate makes for slightly easier searching and scrolling. If I am going to irritate a group, I want to be somewhat confident of accruing net benefits.

We are certainly much more interested in how our users of the IoT forum would like to see themselves described and/or branded. To get to a confident understanding of that we might use a staff guided discussion inside the IoT forum, but we have not really decided yet.

 

[CivOasis]

I would not say it is completely off the table, just that none of the staff posting here in the current discussion in Site Feedback have yet seen any significant benefit to doing so. Like the former moderator EQandcivfanantic, I do not (yet) see cross-pollination or activity benefits from merging all the dead threads of NES with the active threads of IoT, and leaving them separate makes for slightly easier searching and scrolling. If I am going to irritate a group, I want to be somewhat confident of accruing net benefits.

We are certainly much more interested in how our users of the IoT forum would like to see themselves described and/or branded. To get to a confident understanding of that we might use a staff guided discussion inside the IoT forum, but we have not really decided yet.

Thank you for clarifying

EDIT: And if we're not doing a merger, than I don't see much of a point in renaming for renaming's sake. I was more interested in a rename if the merger occurs to respect the history and inclusion of NES into the fold. I don't see any issue with renaming in either scenario, mind you, just not strongly for if nothing else is actually changing.

 

[Thlayli]

I think the obvious next step is to do a runoff poll between NESIOT and the winner of the Narrative Games/Narrative Strategy Games/Story Games trio, with Status Quo as a third option, after taking into account any vote switches.

Though I recommend that the runoff poll be posted in the IOT forum to ensure maximal participation.

 

[Nuka-sama]

There is a benefit to the merger as CivO said, but I still think a rename (even without the merger) would help respect the community and history of the NESers playing here in IOT.

I want to connect with the mod staff (particularly leif, since he reached out to me before regarding this), before taking any further steps on this issue, but yes, one of the NES/IOT or NESIOT names versus one of the Narrative Game ideas (and a Status Quo option) would probably be best to ensure that all the members of the IOT community can have a say in their name

 

[Birdjaguar]

yep. Because we NEED them polls.
EDIT: As such, and because I agree with Birdjag on a couple issues, I'm abstaining from the vote.

thank you. I will not vote either.

The poll does not accommodate my view, which is to not rename IOT at all.

Yeah what's up with that anyway?

Ditto ^

Me too.

To be fair, Thayli, back in the days of Abaddon spamming NES ads everywhere I tried, twice, to figure out what it was and how one played, and even after reading the introductory sticky I never actually understood it because the 'guide' always amounted to "Read through a thread or look at these example orders", and to a complete stranger with no background in forum roleplay none of it makes any sense. ('Welcome to IOT' isn't much better in this regard, but at least it starts on the premise that you're playing a game.)

So a bland acronym and non-descriptive description aren't exactly challenging precedent.

Glory days!!

I would not say it is completely off the table, just that none of the staff posting here in the current discussion in Site Feedback have yet seen any significant benefit to doing so. Like the former moderator EQandcivfanantic, I do not (yet) see cross-pollination or activity benefits from merging all the dead threads of NES with the active threads of IoT, and leaving them separate makes for slightly easier searching and scrolling. If I am going to irritate a group, I want to be somewhat confident of accruing net benefits.

We are certainly much more interested in how our users of the IoT forum would like to see themselves described and/or branded. To get to a confident understanding of that we might use a staff guided discussion inside the IoT forum, but we have not really decided yet.

Thanks Lefty.

 

[NinjaCow64]

Thank you for clarifying

EDIT: And if we're not doing a merger, than I don't see much of a point in renaming for renaming's sake. I was more interested in a rename if the merger occurs to respect the history and inclusion of NES into the fold. I don't see any issue with renaming in either scenario, mind you, just not strongly for if nothing else is actually changing.

Same here.