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[Poll] Tribute from CS rewards too little but costs too much?

Discussion in 'Community Patch Project' started by WileyNg, Jun 6, 2015.

?

How do you think about the Tribute system?

  1. Underpowered. Rewards too little but costs too much. I never do it.

    20 vote(s)
    60.6%
  2. Fair. Depends on UA, situations and mapsize. I sometimes do it.

    13 vote(s)
    39.4%
  3. Overpowered. Gives too much gold and costs little effort. I always do it.

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  1. DLimited

    DLimited Warlord

    Joined:
    Feb 24, 2015
    Messages:
    152
    Ah, I'd like to write a bit about CS participating in wars. Because honestly, I don't remember the last time a CS actually posed a threat. They are a minor distraction at best, if they were an actual threat because they are in an important strategic location I'd take them out anyway, and before I go for my actual target. And if the AI wants to stop me, well I have this well-trained army that just took out a city state! Not to mention, it doesn't really take long to kill a CS because you can preposition your units.

    Instead of buffing CS durability or some such, I'd love it if all allied CS gifted you military units from time to time (or just when you declare war on someone they are already at war with), Militaristic just more frequently (and they have their special unit, too).

    Anyway, bit off-topic maybe, but really I don't see much benefit in having CS allies if you're at war.

    That scenario is why I went off the deep end with my systems change proposals :p

    I wanted to avoid the fact that you can intimidate for the early boost, then use that to ally later and the CS go "no hard feelings, we're cool! ;)". I mean, you could maybe make it so that if you intimidated once, you gain less influence from quests and diplomats, while others gain more, but that seems really heavyhanded and inelegant to me. *shrug*
     
  2. Strigvir

    Strigvir Emperor

    Joined:
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    1,299
    Hostile CSes can be used to farm experience for your units. After all a CS without units is harmless, so you don't need to take it down.
    So it could self-perpetuate with gifting gifted units back?
    Several city-states around an enemy border force AI to spread its units and thus makes easier to capture cities. Even if allied CS gets captured you can alway liberate it and get a lot influence for that. It's a win-win situation.
    You seem to think that allies are like buttbuddies, but the reasons for alliances are mostly political/economical, like a road to your capital (built by your workers ofc).
    After all the whole Europe spent their time warring each other constantly and that didn't prevent them from forming EU.
     
  3. DLimited

    DLimited Warlord

    Joined:
    Feb 24, 2015
    Messages:
    152
    No, I don't need to, but I might as well because it costs me nothing and harms my competitors. EDIT: To expand on this, I try to make wars as quick as possible so it frees up my military to be somewhere else. If I know I won't be attacked, I can take my time to milk the CS for all the EXP it's worth, but that's not a scenario I really go for: If the CS is in a strategic position that I want for myself, of course I'm going to capture asap and not drag it out. The other option would be I'm fighting it because it's allied with someone else, in which case capturing it will deny him the CS ally benefits, so I'll do that asap too. I don't usually start a war with a CS just to level units for a long long time, before making peace and going for an AI with the upgraded units, because instead of the military I built to take out the CS I could've built infrastructure instead.

    Considering how little gifting units gives (5 or 10 influence? Can't remember) I don't really see a problem, especially if it is a one-time-gift at the start of the war.

    I did think about the CS itself gaining free units when they declare war, so if you're worried about that or the potential overlap with Militaristic CS that's another possibility. I just thought that it's quite feasible to entice people in an alliance to join in on the war effort.

    I'd agree if Liberating was actually a useful mechanic; right now whenever I liberate a CS I get set to 120 influence or so and loose 6 per turn until they're only friends again. Haven't found a way to stop that either.

    In any case, it's been a while that I have seen a CS actively participating in a war, if they don't send units to attack then the defender doesn't have to spread out units either, so it's sadly a moot point. I'd like it if they just did more stuff during war, that's the goal I was going for.

    Good point. I just have a very vengeful personality ingame :mischief: So forgetting the past in favour of mutual prosperity usually doesn't enter my mind :lol:

    Nevertheless, if you have had good relations for a long time, that's got to be worth more than an alliance that's just a couple turns old.
     
  4. ecgopher

    ecgopher Warlord

    Joined:
    Sep 28, 2014
    Messages:
    161
    My anecdote: I never, ever build diplo units. I either fill patronage and get tons of allies passively, or completely ignore the diplo game and focus on whatever my target victory condition is.
     
  5. TeeInKay

    TeeInKay Warlord

    Joined:
    May 2, 2015
    Messages:
    204
    If you choose to use the diplomatic units you will see an increase in their use from the AI and there will be some major jockeying for control of the most desired alliances. It's not unusual for me to have several allies if I'm using patronage, but there is almost always a contested city state with whom the leader has 600+ influence. +10 influence per great person is hard to compare to +50 for a unit built in a couple turns. EDIT: I often go off playstyle like Diplo-Rome or Diplo-Songhai and compete with the more diplomatic civilizations for control of the city states.
     
  6. WileyNg

    WileyNg Prince

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2013
    Messages:
    595
    Location:
    Hong Kong
    Dear all,

    I think the heavy tribute is still too weak.
    Here is the screencap:
    Spoiler :


    I am producing +99 science and it only awards half of my yield per turn. And it can only be enacted every maybe 20 turns?


    It costs too much but rewards too little.
    I would rather use the gold tribute.

    What do you all think?
     
  7. Delekhan

    Delekhan Prince

    Joined:
    Jul 22, 2013
    Messages:
    539
    Location:
    Dallas, Texas
    55 Science is way better than 130 Gold in almost any scenario, unless you're going bankrupt which you clearly are not based on your screenshot.

    Remember that's just one city state. The assumption is you can do this half a dozen times in a few turns if you want to, albeit with different resources.

    Later in the game you can set up a squadron of battleships to roam the oceans, extracting tribute 12 times every 20 turns or so. Believe me, it adds up.

    I do think the Religious CS heavy tribute is garbage in the late game and I will always take gold from them instead.

    On another note, what map type is that? Is that an earth map?
     
  8. Funak

    Funak Deity

    Joined:
    Jul 15, 2013
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    I'm not really sure why you're complaining about getting half a turn worth of science for free, seems like a good deal to me :D
     
  9. ecgopher

    ecgopher Warlord

    Joined:
    Sep 28, 2014
    Messages:
    161
    Because it's not free. Better off allying the CS for the vote and resources than half a turn worth of one yield.
     
  10. Strigvir

    Strigvir Emperor

    Joined:
    Sep 12, 2013
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    1,299
    Not to mention that you have to micromanage tributes even more if you have more CSes in game.
     
  11. Finarvi

    Finarvi Prince

    Joined:
    Jan 3, 2015
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    529
    With EUI cs'es that can be bullied change their color to orange so it's not a big deal to micromonage it.
     
  12. Delekhan

    Delekhan Prince

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    EUI makes managing tribute a breeze, just check the CS color on the right bar, below the major civ portraits.

    And not everyone wants to go for a diplomatic victory or cares about World Congress votes in every game. For example, if I'm already losing hard in influence to City-states, or if someone has a colossal lead in a few city-states, I'm going to extract what benefit I can out of them by going for tribute. I can also use tribute to provoke a war declaration by someone, or if I want to get denounced by their allied civ in order to gain diplomatic bonuses from others whom they have also denounced. I might as well get paid for it in the process.
     
  13. Funak

    Funak Deity

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    You can also get influence with some city-states by bullying others, which is great honestly the best of both worlds.
     
  14. Brokenbone

    Brokenbone Prince

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    Nov 28, 2007
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    I don't often bother with the Tribute scene, maybe it's just my playstyle. A couple of times playing Zulu I did though, and I would come back like clockwork as soon as a tribute timer wore off, snag free workers or gold, this is before the tribute changes for "in kind" stuff such as food.

    One thing I'm curious of though, does the Mongolia UA not really pay mind to the timers?

    I was having a war with Mongolia, decided to liberate a CS, hurray, instant ally, a turn or two later, Mongolia owned it again via bully. This had to have happened about three times, it's this burning low defense city is all of a sudden Mongolia again so I liberate it again and again. I had thought there was maybe a timer, though maybe the timer reset every time Mombasa or Mogadishu or whoever it was, was out of play, then came back "fresh" and ready to be bullied again.

    Somewhat humorously I liberated several more CSs and had Mongolia on its heels, they in fact capitulated into Vassaldom (their idea not mine). I was Siam and happy to have some grateful CSs. So then once he's my vassal I lose pretty much all my CSs I'd just liberated, as within 2 turns after the war, Mongolia had bullied them all back into his shattered empire. He couldn't have owned more than 2 pikemen huddled around Karakorum. Oops, maybe no Mongol vassal next time.
     
  15. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch Supporter

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    The value resets upon death (as all such values are nulled when a player dies, for memory storage reasons).

    G
     
  16. Delekhan

    Delekhan Prince

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    The Mongolia UA does get rather obnoxious at times. I've disabled Mongolia in my latest games to avoid that particular headache.
     
  17. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch Supporter

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    Please don't do this (i.e. disable something that's not behaving properly) and not tell me. That's not a very useful way for me to garner feedback.

    G
     
  18. Funak

    Funak Deity

    Joined:
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    I think the issue most people (me included) are facing is that it is hard to know when something is "not behaving properly". Partly because it is hard to know what 'properly' means, partly because you don't know if something is an isolated incident and partly because you can't really see the numbers happening behind the scenes.
    Even with things that should be pretty clear like buildings there are loads of conflicting information, for example a building can say one thing in-game a completely different thing in the civpedia description and another completely different thing in EUI. It leads to a lot of confusion.
     
  19. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch Supporter

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    That's what the Github Issues page is for. Seriously. :gripe:

    G
     
  20. Finarvi

    Finarvi Prince

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    So Mongolia UA can turn CS that is allied to someone? Maybe we should just change it that Mongolia can't do that? We could also add them that bullying decreases other players' influence on that CS as well (by a half or third of normal amount) so this UA would work lategame too.
     

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