(Poll) What civs should be a priority for alternate leader?

France: I love Catherine, she´s an interesting figure and a fun personality to have around, but yeah, France has Napoleon and Louis XIV sitting there as great alternatives.
Egypt: Egypt could use an Old Kingdom leader, like Ramses II or Hatshepsut.
Japan: Hojo is cool, but I'd really love to see Meiji appear sometime, as a fairly modern leader.
Rome: Caesar or Augustus would be fun to have special interactions with Cleo with.

Special mention to Poland, which I'm surprised not many people picked. Boleslaw or Casimir would be great to have.

 

I'd like to take a moment to once again point out that Orleans is very conspicuously absent from the French city list. In a game where they're not skimping on lady leaders. In a series where Jeanne d'Arc has been a leader before, twice. Oh, and what do you know, she'd form a perfect thematic contrast with Catherine, just as Chandragupta does with Gandhi. (i.e. the underhanded queen who works in the shadows, versus the holy peasant girl who fights to bring light to her country.)

I didn't suggest Jeanne since I know she's polarizing, but I still suspect that she might actually have an extremely solid chance. Personally I'd be fine with her, but since we already have Catherine, I still think I'd kinda prefer a safer choice for the second leader...

 

I miss Napoleon and Isabel la católica so much, would like to see a second leader for US of A maybe Lincoln since he had a great impact in economy, science, and helped pave the way for a more modern, humane culture.

 

When considering which civs warrant an alternate leader, I take 3 things into account:

1. Is the current leader historically inappropriate?
2. Is the current leader's ability poorly synergized or even anti-synergistic with their respective civilization's other uniques? (I ignore weak LUAs - that's more of a holistic balance issue).
3. Disregarding 1 & 2, is there a leader that would just be cool to have even if the current leader/civ pairing is already thematic and strong?

Based off of this (and ignoring R&F civs and India), I think these are the top 4 that need an alt leader:

1. France
Catherine de Medici is both 1 and 2. She didn't lead France in life (I don't care if she was arguably the power behind the throne at times or if she was primarily responsible for navigating some tough years) and her spy-based ability, while admittedly pretty fun, doesn't tie into France's other uniques in any way. Frankly, if she made it into the game at all, it should have been as an alt leader.

While I personally love Napoleon and think having him lead his Imperial Guard would be awesome, I can't condone a militaristic France with the uniques they have; he'd have just as poor synergy as CdM even if he's a better choice historically.

I'd advocate for the return of Louis XIV. The Sun King could inject some extra oomph into a French culture game, which is what they're clearly designed to excel at even if they currently don't.

2. Egypt
I don't mind Cleopatra all that much from a historical standpoint. She did rule Egypt and even with the cultural divide between the ruling class and people, she was still fully Egyptian in my mind. Just how many centuries does a family have to rule before they're considered native to their country? You can argue she wasn't technically Egyptian, but she sure as hell wasn't fully Greek outside of her genes.

No, my reservations stem from the time period she represents more than Cleopatra herself. She was head of a Successor Kingdom dynasty that was far past its apex and on the brink of being absorbed into Rome. I'd rather see a leader from Old Egypt that represents ancient Egypt at its height. Not to mention that Mediterranean's Bride isn't a very good ability on top of a civ with abilities that are also underwhelming.

I'd like to see Ramesses II back, preferably with a LUA that interacts with Wonders and Districts in some way so that there's synergy with Iteru.

3. Spain
Philip II is historically solid. Totally deserving of his spot as Spain's leader. The problem is his LUA. While it's flavorful (heck, all of Spain's uniques are flavorful), it just works poorly with everything else. The design of Spain is too wound up with the idea of founding a religion or having a majority religion while giving you nothing special to achieve that. If you fail to snag a religion, as you very well can when playing Spain, and no one spreads one to you, most of your uniques are chucked right out the window.

For that reason and because of her continued popularity, I wouldn't mind seeing Isabella again. She could bring Spain an exploration/colonization bent that would tie in well with the Mission's newly added loyalty utility.

4. China
I'm not enough of a student of Chinese history to make specific recommendations on an appropriate alternate leader, but I do recognize the fact that China has a long and colorful history and that while Qin Shi Huang is a perfectly valid choice to lead China, there are definitely many other leaders who could tweak China's playstyle in fun and interesting ways.

Honorable Mentions (most of these are reason #3 for me)

America - No pressing need for an alternate, but I'd enjoy seeing Lincoln again or even the debut of Jefferson (we've had everyone else in the Rushmore Club at this point, plus one nephew). The former could do interesting things with Loyalty and Dark Ages while the latter could give us a scientific-leaning America.

Poland - In a hypothetical Ottoman DLC pack that didn't involve the Fall of Constantinople, it would be cool to see Jan Sobieski in a Siege of Vienna Scenario. Poland with more of a militaristic focus would be fun. After all, Golden Liberty gives you culture bombs for Encampments and Forts and converts a Military policy into a Wildcard

England - If for no other reason than she's been in every game thus far, I'd want Elizabeth again. That and she would nicely pivot England from colonial expansion to cultural refinement. Would synergize with British Museum if she had a Great Works bonus. I could see something to do with Great Works of Writing. We have leaders already that add yields to Relics, Sculptures, and Artifacts. Why not books and plays?

Germany - I'd say Frederick the Great, but we've got a Freddy already. So Otto von Bismarck, then. I'd suggest something that gives him an extra Diplomatic policy card in any government (a spin on Frederick's extra military card) plus extra loyalty for cities with two or more districts.

Civs I Don't Think Need an Alternate

Kongo - I don't think the Kongo was ever designed with an alternate leader in mind. In a vacuum, Nkisi is one of the strongest abilities in the game. It's why Religious Convert is more of a disability than ability. For balance. An alt leader for Kongo, therefore, would have a very disappointing LUA, so what's the point?

Russia - This is roughly the same situation as Kongo. Grand Embassy is pretty pathetic as far as LUAs go and it's because Mother Russia and the Lavra are so good. While I would love to see Ivan the Terrible or Catherine the Great, I feel like either of their LUAs would be terrible and not great.

 

Good point re Orleans...

 

Depends; it didn't take long at all for the Yuan dynasty to become fully Sinicized. On the other hand the Ptolemies had been on the throne for hundreds of years, but Cleopatra is supposed to be the first of them who actually bothered to learn to speak Egyptian.

Really is this true? That seems like quite an oversight, like leaving Boston off of the American city list or York off of the English.

 

Yep. I don't want Jean as a leader of France in the game...but why else would they leave off Orleans!?

 

If they do actually use her (God help us) they should make sure her colour is that hideous hot pink from Civ III. And don't include anything else in the DLC I might actually want (i.e.: wonders) so I can skip her entirely, please and thank you. I refuse to recognize her as a legitimate leader for France; Catherine de Medici is already pushing it, and she at least actually did wield real political power. I get the desire to include more females because... well let's not get into it. But it should at least make sense and Joan of Arc is the most non-sensical idea for a ruler I think they've ever had.

Wait, no, scratch that - Amaterasu for Japan and Ishtar for Babylon, both from Civ II. Those were the dumbest.

 

Maybe they just forgot?. It is not a prerequesite the capitals are excluded from the city list. In my first Pericles game, Sparta appeared as second city.

 

You don't just forget Orleans! Not in Civ where until now it has been one of the highest ranked French cities...

 

France is my answer for the simple reason that Cathérine is solidly a-okay as of this expansion and a new French leader wouldn't invalidate her. Pick Louis XIV, make Versailles his capital, done deal. China also deserve an alt imo. Liu Bang (Luoyang), Wu Zetian (Shendu) and the Yongle Emperor (Beijing) are all worthy choices. Spain would work too, with the obvious Isabella (whose Capital should be Valladollid or Burgos)

Similarly, I didn't vote for Egypt or Russia because Peter and Cleo are weak and need to be buffed before an Alt leader should even be considered. (although Queen of the Nile was buffed with R&F's release it's still the weakest LUA by wide margin.)

 

I want another Arabian leader who's based in Mecca, Medina, or Damascus.

Also, Catherine the Great and Frederick the Great

 

In terms of deserving I went with China for having a long enough history to justify a different-era leader, and Germany/France/Egypt for having leaders encompassing historical periods not traditionally associated with the civ's usual gameplay.

I would not be opposed to a Elizabeth I/Catherine the Great/Isabella/Wu Zetian/Theodora alt leader super-DLC purely for the civ veteran pandering and the marketing appeal of an all-female leader xpac (consisting of leaders that actually deserve to be considered some of the greats). Maria I can eat her heart out.

 

I could live without old Orleans if it means we will not get Jean.

 

I selected Germany, England, America and Spain. I'd like to see Hitler, Henry V, FD Roosevelt and Isabella respectively. I know there's buckley's chance of seeing the first one though.

 

Thinking about it... I would really love Frederik the Great for Germany (or as I said more modern diplomatic leaders such as Ebert or Brandt).

But Frederik would work better with the design of Germany overall plus a cultural focus (Brandt with the Panzer and all that would be weird, indeed).

Barbarossa is simply so boring to play with his city state focus that really does no good at all, at least not in how I play the game.

So yeah, I guess I would move Germany to the top of my list (but remain with France, England and Russia/USA as the runner-ups... I know, Eurocentrism... but when it comes to second leaders I don't deny that it seems more interesting to me to have them in the game. Probably because I know more about them and that certainly helps with immersion).



BTW: since I see CiVI not as a representation of history but a fun and alternative take on it, I wouldn't mind Jeanne d'Arc all that much. If they decide to implement her I also think it is not "because they are dumb" as some suggest but because they felt that she fits their model of chosing diverse personalities to the game (as they told us basically from the announcement on). I think under this paradigm d'Arc isn't that much of a leap.

 

Yeah, I fear this is another case of putting the cart of rampant speculation before the horses .

A missing city does not indicate an alternate leader. Sparta or Athens, and Delhi or Patna are available regardless of the leader you pick. Only the capital is different.

 

Besides the obvious demand for well-known English and French monarchs I would like to see:

Japan: I've studied history of Japan in college for a little while but I would have never picked Hojo Tokimune for a representative japanese leader. Can we get some Tokugawas up in here at least? Or Meiji?

Russia: After all these years I would love to see someone else besides the two Romanovs in the Civ series. Some older rulers would be nice. Ivan the Terrible? Dmitry Donskoy?

Arabia: Saladin is Ok, but it would be interesting to see some other dynasties.

 

My number one choice is easily China, but only as long as the leader is NOT Mao Zedong. There are so many Chinese leaders to choose from, we don't need to have the one man who is responsible for more deaths than anybody else in history...Seriously not something to feel proud about, China.. Anybody who really cares about the lives of Chinese people wouldn't support such an inclusion.
I'm hoping for a female leader for China's 2nd, and as my sig says, I'm supportive of either Empress Dowager Cixi, or alternatively Empress Wu Zetian. Neither were perfect rulers, but they were each very impressive in their own right (especially the "Dragon Lady").
China really is deserving of a 2nd leader. Besides all of this, China in Civ VI could use a leader that takes them in a different direction than Shi Huangdi does.

I also would like to see Queen Nzinga Mbande for Kongo, Napoleon Bonaparte for France, and Catherine II for Russia. They would be my first 4 choices, and I think they could each bring out a different side of their respective civs.

 

France, Russia, China, and Egypt.

While I'm decidedly in the "Catherine de Medici is okay" camp, espionage is but one avenue France can pursue, especially with the rest of its uniques being focused on a Cultural victory (though the Garde Imperiale sticks out like a sore thumb here).

Russia has an interesting UD that works with its CA, but Peter's LA is practically nonexistent outside of higher difficulties.

China has a good CA (25% more Science/Culture than usual from Eurekas and Inspirations is nice), and though the UU and UI kinda fall flat there's potential. Qin Shi Huang's LA stops being relevant two eras in (and most Ancient/Classical wonders suck anyway), which is irksome.

Egypt is frankly all over the place wrt its uniques, just like in V. The CA is nice and thematic, the UI is very weak, and the UU isn't worth it. Cleo's LA is okay, but doesn't synergize well otherwise.

My dream list for the alternative leaders would be:

Louis IX for France, using domination and religion as stepping stones towards a cultural victory. His LA would allow for the creation of Relics through combat.

Alexander II for Russia. He was one of the most popular emperors in Russian history, and his role as the Liberator could tie in the Loyalty mechanics.

Taizong for China, his rule was held as a gold standard for generations of crown princes of China. Focus on expansionism (since China in VI inexplicably is a defensive state) and science.

Thutmose III for Egypt. I know there are a lot of domination civs in VI already, but it would be nice for the Egyptian UU to finally shine for once.