Poll: What new African civilizations would you like to see included in the franchise?

[Zaarin]

It would most likely depend on who they pick as a leader, but my preference for Ethiopia or Aksum would definitely make there preferred religion in game be Eastern Orthodox.

Or Oriental Orthodox if you use the Historical Religions mod. But even pre-Christian Aksum wouldn't be Jewish: the Aksumites worshiped Arabian gods before Christianity spread there.

Then again Harald goes for Protestantism and Dido for Judaism already.

Yeah, Harald should favor Orthodoxy or Catholicism (you can make a case for either) and Dido should just be random: Dido's Canaanite paganism was no closer to Judaism than Tomyris's Iranian paganism was to Zoroastrianism, and Tomyris doesn't favor Zoroastrianism in the game. Maybe they wanted Dido to favor Judaism because no other leader does, but no leader favors Sikhism, Shinto, or Daoism...(Historical Religions makes Harald favor Eastern Orthodoxy and Dido Canaanite Paganism.)

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

Or Oriental Orthodox if you use the Historical Religions mod. But even pre-Christian Aksum wouldn't be Jewish: the Aksumites worshiped Arabian gods before Christianity spread there.

The only leader that comes to mind would be Gudit, specifically for Ethiopia.

Maybe they wanted Dido to favor Judaism because no other leader does, but no leader favors Sikhism, Shinto, or Daoism...

I think you mean Confucianism, because Qin does favor Daoism. Considering the Phoenicians are closely related to the ancient Israelites this is obviously the reason and it's probably the closest that we might ever get to them.

 

[Patine]

Considering the Phoenicians are closely related to the ancient Israelites this is obviously the reason and it's probably the closest that we might ever get to them.

Isn't Dido's voice actress in-game, in fact, an Israeli woman?

 

[Zaarin]

I think you mean Confucianism, because Qin does favor Daoism.

You're right. Civ6 is rather strange in that Japan doesn't favor Shinto and neither China nor Korea favor Confucianism...If we get a second Chinese leader, odds are certainly in favor of their being Confucian, though.

Considering the Phoenicians are closely related to the ancient Israelites this is obviously the reason and it's probably the closest that we might ever get to them.

True, but it's not really close enough. Just ask literally any of the Prophets. Isaiah 23, for example, doesn't exactly read, "The Phoenicians are just Jews with a few extra gods," unless "they will be in anguish over the report about Tyre" sounds friendly to you.

Isn't Dido's voice actress in-game, in fact, an Israeli woman?

Yes. Some Lebanese, especially Maronites, consider themselves descendants of the Phoenicians, but the Phoenician language is no longer spoken there. Dido, voiced by the same voice actress in both Civ5 and Civ6, is for all intents and purposes speaking Israeli Hebrew with some archaic grammar and a couple Phoenicianisms. To the question could enough real Phoenician be put together to assemble a few lines for Dido, the answer is yes but not easily; even Cleopatra's Middle Egyptian would have been easier. (The real trouble is that there's much less scholarship done on Phoenician than there is on Egyptian. The foremost scholar in Phoenician studies, Charles Krahmalkov, is dead, and his books can be very difficult to get a hold of.)

 

[Patine]

You're right. Civ6 is rather strange in that Japan doesn't favor Shinto and neither China nor Korea favor Confucianism...If we get a second Chinese leader, odds are certainly in favor of their being Confucian, though.


True, but it's not really close enough. Just ask literally any of the Prophets. Isaiah 23, for example, doesn't exactly read, "The Phoenicians are just Jews with a few extra gods," unless "they will be in anguish over the report about Tyre" sounds friendly to you.


Yes. Some Lebanese, especially Maronites, consider themselves descendants of the Phoenicians, but the Phoenician language is no longer spoken there. Dido, voiced by the same voice actress in both Civ5 and Civ6, is for all intents and purposes speaking Israeli Hebrew with some archaic grammar and a couple Phoenicianisms. To the question could enough real Phoenician be put together to assemble a few lines for Dido, the answer is yes but not easily; even Cleopatra's Middle Egyptian would have been easier. (The real trouble is that there's much less scholarship done on Phoenician than there is on Egyptian. The foremost scholar in Phoenician studies, Charles Krahmalkov, is dead, and his books can be very difficult to get a hold of.)

"Archaic grammar" as in like Shakespearean actors to English-speakers, basically?

 

[Lonecat Nekophrodite]

Or Oriental Orthodox if you use the Historical Religions mod. But even pre-Christian Aksum wouldn't be Jewish: the Aksumites worshiped Arabian gods before Christianity spread there.


Yeah, Harald should favor Orthodoxy or Catholicism (you can make a case for either) and Dido should just be random: Dido's Canaanite paganism was no closer to Judaism than Tomyris's Iranian paganism was to Zoroastrianism, and Tomyris doesn't favor Zoroastrianism in the game. Maybe they wanted Dido to favor Judaism because no other leader does, but no leader favors Sikhism, Shinto, or Daoism...(Historical Religions makes Harald favor Eastern Orthodoxy and Dido Canaanite Paganism.)

What are 'Lavras'? Are there Lavras that existed outside Russosphere? like Greece, Turkey?
And if Cathedrals are preferrable to Catholicism. What should the unique holy site building (selectible at the founding stage) for Eastern Orthodoxy be? Basilica? and what should it do?

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

Isn't Dido's voice actress in-game, in fact, an Israeli woman?

Looking her up I think she is from Canada, though could possibly be of Israeli descent.

You're right. Civ6 is rather strange in that Japan doesn't favor Shinto and neither China nor Korea favor Confucianism...If we get a second Chinese leader, odds are certainly in favor of their being Confucian, though.

Considering the leaders are Hojo and Seondeok who were known practitioners of Buddhism I don’t think it is strange. Plus since religions ate tied to the leader, this was a given.
I think its stranger that they introduced Chandragupta without Jainism.

What are 'Lavras'? Are there Lavras that existed outside Russosphere? like Greece, Turkey?
And if Cathedrals are preferrable to Catholicism. What should the unique holy site building (selectible at the founding stage) for Eastern Orthodoxy be? Basilica? and what should it do?

Lavra is a greek word referring to a large Eastern Orthodox Monastery. Russia is considered the main home of Eastern Orthodoxy now, after the fall of Constantinople, and they wanted to put in a Russian onion domed cathedral, which is why they got the Lavra.

Catholics, Orthodox, and even some Protestants worship in cathedral buildings so I don’t think a separate building matters. Besides probably the most famous basilica, St. Peters, is the home of the pope.

If we were to get another worship building give us the Mandir, a Hindu building which we don’t have one for that major religion, and let it provide gold.

 

[Lonecat Nekophrodite]

Lavra is a greek word referring to a large Eastern Orthodox Monastery. Russia is considered the main home of Eastern Orthodoxy now, after the fall of Constantinople, and they wanted to put in a Russian onion domed cathedral, which is why they got the Lavra.

Catholics, Orthodox, and even some Protestants worship in cathedral buildings so I don’t think a separate building matters. Besides probably the most famous basilica, St. Peters, is the home of the pope.

If we were to get another worship building give us the Mandir, a Hindu building which we don’t have one for that major religion, and let it provide gold.

1. What is a different between Basilica and Cathedral?
if Protestantism favors Meeting House (Protestantism as we known today was actually clarified by John Calvin, which he further added Iconoclasm to the religion in addition to disdainful of vanity, contrasting themselves to anything Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy (and maybe even Anglicanism) stands for. and Cathedral is an accepted symbol of Catholicism. I'd go for Basilica as alternate 'Cathedral' for Eastern Orthodoxy (or do you think the preexisting 'Synagogue' fits them better?, or better adds 'Abbey'/'Seminary' as religion specific holy site building choices?)
2. What should Monthien/ Monthon (Siamese pronounciation of Mandir i think, yes I'm Siamese cat meow =^.^= ) do? gold in addition to faith?
3. Should Martial Arts School building be included in the religion founding choices? (Permits basic encampment functions to Holy Sites )

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

I'd go for Basilica as alternate 'Cathedral' for Eastern Orthodoxy (or do you think the preexisting 'Synagogue' fits them better?, or better adds 'Abbey'/'Seminary' as religion specific holy site building choices?)

A Synagogue is a place for Jewish worship so that doesn't make any sense. Religious basilicas are designated by either the pope or were a special kind of architecture. that was known. The Cathedral is fine representing both as both Christian denominations do worship regularly in Cathedrals. And as I've stated before the four most major "basilicas" are in Rome with one being the head of the Catholic Church. So in essence a "basilica" would make more sense for a Catholic worship building, but then again it's just a special type of cathedral.

2. What should Monthien/ Monthon (Siamese pronounciation of Mandir i think, yes I'm Siamese cat meow =^.^= ) do? gold in addition to faith?

Yes. the standard amount of faith for all worship buildings and gold. The largest had treasuries from all the donations served as banks for their communities.

3. Should Martial Arts School building be included in the religion founding choices? (Permits basic encampment functions to Holy Sites )

Not sure why a building like that would be included since we already have it to where you can train Warrior Monks from a temple. I'd like to maybe see a Confucian School building that provides raw culture and you wouldn't have to wait for a Religious Work of Art for the Cathedral.

 

[Lonecat Nekophrodite]

Not sure why a building like that would be included since we already have it to where you can train Warrior Monks from a temple. I'd like to maybe see a Confucian School building that provides raw culture and you wouldn't have to wait for a Religious Work of Art for the Cathedral.

Back in Civ4 where Religion was first introduced. (and the game rules treats religion as 'technology' thing.) Confucianism is one such religion (one might say it falls to Phillosophy rather than being a proper religion) and one of many religions buildings for Confucianism is called 'Academy'. This was (and possibly still) the place where government servicemen of old China, Korea, and Viets came from, those civs of sinic cultures prefers educated servicemen over inherited feudal lordships. While Wat (Actually originated from old India) strongly associated to Buddhism (Specially Deravathi Schools) and yields both Faith and Science, Academy should produce culture and science with no faith yields.

 

[Zaarin]

"Archaic grammar" as in like Shakespearean actors to English-speakers, basically?

The grammar is a mix of Biblical Hebrew and proper Phoenician (which was more grammatically conservative than Hebrew), so more archaic than that--but since the words and sounds are still Israeli Hebrew, it's rather like speaking American English with Old English grammar.

Considering the leaders are Hojo and Seondeok who were known practitioners of Buddhism I don’t think it is strange.

Strange in the sense that both China and Korea have been Confucian for most of their history so that it is a strange fluke that neither China nor Korea is Confucian, especially since it was inevitable we'd get Buddhist leaders from Southeast Asia. (I'm certainly not complaining about the choice of either Seondeok or Hojo, though I'm less thrilled with Qin--out of so many interesting leader choices in Civ6 he feels very...safe, almost to the point of timid.)

I think its stranger that they introduced Chandragupta without Jainism.

Again, Historical Religions fixes this.

I'd go for Basilica as alternate 'Cathedral' for Eastern Orthodoxy

In both Orthodoxy and Catholicism (and Anglicanism/Episcopalianism and maybe Lutheranism and Presbyterianism), a cathedral is the seat of a bishop. So Orthodox, Catholics, and some Protestants all have both cathedrals and "meeting houses" (better: churches). Both Orthodox and Catholics also have abbeys/monasteries. Synagogues are specific to Jews, but Messianic Jews do call their houses of worship synagogues (probably to the annoyance of Orthodox Jews).

or better adds 'Abbey'/'Seminary' as religion specific holy site building choices?

I'd love to see the addition of an Abbey, Monastery, or Priory (don't care which they call it) that adds +3 faith, +1 science, +1 culture. I think there's a mod that adds this, and it just makes a lot of sense. The ability to house a relic would be nice, but that would be slightly OP.

3. Should Martial Arts School building be included in the religion founding choices? (Permits basic encampment functions to Holy Sites )

I enjoy a good wuxia film, but don't take them as historical. (Yes, some styles of gong fu are associated with the Wudang and Shaolin monasteries, but they were never military camps of any kind--and most such gong fu styles are chiefly physical or meditation exercises like taijiquan. Plus the whole mythos of Wudang and Shaolin got exaggerated by wuxia media like the novels of Jin Yong/Louis Cha.)

 

[TahamiTsunami]

I think its stranger that they introduced Chandragupta without Jainism.

Yeah, same with not including Tengriism with the mongols. I'm glad that there's a historical religions mod but I would think that the official game could at least include Jainism, Tengriism, and a few religions from Africa and the Americas.

As for the poll, it looks like Madagascar is running away with it! The Swahili and Zimbabwe are just a bit further behind and I'm glad to see the Ashanti and Benin doing well too! Dahomey, Numidia, Aksum, and South Africa are not doing bad either.

 

[Patine]

Yeah, same with not including Tengriism with the mongols. I'm glad that there's a historical religions mod but I would think that the official game could at least include Jainism, Tengriism, and a few religions from Africa and the Americas.

As for the poll, it looks like Madagascar is running away with it! The Swahili and Zimbabwe are just a bit further behind and I'm glad to see the Ashanti and Benin doing well too! Dahomey, Numidia, Aksum, and South Africa are not doing bad either.

South Africa is a bit worrisome leaderwise. The only leader of South Africa who hasn't died as recently as the 21st Century who wouldn't be a racist controversy in the making would be Jan Chritiaan Smuts. Or is that already who was floated?

 

[TahamiTsunami]

South Africa is a bit worrisome leaderwise. The only leader of South Africa who hasn't died as recently as the 21st Century who wouldn't be a racist controversy in the making would be Jan Chritiaan Smuts. Or is that already who was floated?

Probably but I haven't looked into it too much since I'm not a fan of including South Africa either and I've already made my points for why I'd greatly prefer Botswana if we need a modern African civ.

 

[679x]

I'd actually like to see just about all of these civs! Ok, maybe not all at once, but I feel we're sorely lacking in African representation and I wouldn't mind if a hypothetical third expansion included 3 or even 4 different leaders from this continent. Maybe 4 is a stretch, I don't know, but it could give us Ethiopia, an alternate leader for Egypt from an earlier time period (say, Hatshepsut), and another 2 slots for new African civs.

The problem is that there are just so many options and they all have their own appeals, yet, at the same time, you can't accurately cover many cultures/nations/whatever with a single selection from a region like they did with Arabia. That just doesn't happen as easily with Africa. You have modern-day choices like South Africa, Botswana, and Nigeria, but in those same territories you have Zulu, San, and Oyo, respectively, but one of those can't accurately cover the other. You probably wouldn't have Shaka lead South Africa. I would say it's a little different to the situation with the 'America' civ, because the United States alone cover so much space on a map and incorporate territories that once belonged to a wide variety of Native Americans. Imagine it as if every US state were considered to be a civ, and then every Native American nation within each state were also considered to be a civ. I guess my point is that there are just so many distinct options that we may never be satisfied when it comes to African civilizations. But this poll list still gives us plenty to go by.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

I'd love to see the addition of an Abbey, Monastery, or Priory (don't care which they call it) that adds +3 faith, +1 science, +1 culture. I think there's a mod that adds this, and it just makes a lot of sense. The ability to house a relic would be nice, but that would be slightly OP.

If Ethiopia gets in the game I think it would be interesting if they got a unique Worship Building, in the Monolithic Church, that could hold a relic slot and wouldn't require you to choose a worship belief for it. You could even have another worship building belief but in some cities choose to build the Monolithic church.

 

[HumanMap]

I think that Somalia would be an amazing additional civ

 

[Patine]

I think that Somalia would be an amazing additional civ

In what era and under what leader. Somalia has traditionally had numerous coastal sultanates and clan-based groups in the hinterlands, but, in truth, only Said Haarawe, the President from the early '1960's to 1993 actually ruled all of Somalia under one unified government as one Somali leader. It has not happened in Somali history before - or after.

 

[tetley]

I just voted for one: Madagascar. An island civilization with Indonesian roots and French influence. That'll work.

 

[Patine]

I just voted for one: Madagascar. An island civilization with Indonesian roots and French influence. That'll work.

One of the least representative cultures of AFRICA as a whole, as well. Seems a bit defeating the purpose if it's your only vote, but...