Poll: What new civilizations from the Americas would you like to see in the future?

[Boris Gudenuf]

Out of curiosity, there were a lot of Paleo-Siberian cultures on the Kamchatka Peninsula who had a tall pole with a crudely preserved animal carcass on top that also got called by outsiders "a totem pole." I assume these constructs were quite different in nature and purpose than the Crest Polls of PNW cultures?

Not familiar with the Kamchatka tribes, but IF the animal carcass was considered a symbol of the tribe/clan/family then they would be similar to one of the several uses of the Crest Pole, which was as a symbol - a three-dimensional bit of Heraldry, if you will - of the clan or family (or of a particularly important individual in the clan or family). That's why Crest Poles could even be erected inside a clan house, to show off a particularly important family/person within the clan. More often they were erected outside the house, or in a central place in the village, or at the border of the clan/tribal territory as a boundary marker.

 

[Zaarin]

Out of curiosity, there were a lot of Paleo-Siberian cultures on the Kamchatka Peninsula who had a tall pole with a crudely preserved animal carcass on top that also got called by outsiders "a totem pole." I assume these constructs were quite different in nature and purpose than the Crest Polls of PNW cultures?

Good question. I don't know a lot about Siberians. I know some scholars posit that there was intermittent contact between the Haida and Kamchatka based on some similar folk stories, but, while that theory has been demonstrated possible (i.e., Haida canoes are capable of making the journey), it remains unproven. (I tried to do some research, but I'm not finding anything in English beyond that they exist and the Shigir Idol, which is 11,000 years old.) What little I did find suggests they may be more similar to Korean jangseung (which would make sense, Koreans being themselves ultimately Siberian).

Crest Poles could even be erected inside a clan house, to show off a particularly important family/person within the clan.

Crests, whether in the form of a crest pole or a painted crest on the clan house, also served the useful purpose of advertising which clan owned the clan home, which meant that clan members from other villages knew that they could claim the rights of kinship there.

 

[TahamiTsunami]

But yeah, leaders are probably one of the bigger obstacles for a PNW civ

Yeah, they are there but they do need a little bit of digging to find.

The Tewa are not the only Puebloans; I wouldn't be surprised the Hopi would be more amenable.

Since Keres was one of the 7 languages spoken during the Coca-Cola commercial called "It's Beautiful" for the 2014 Super Bowl, the Keres group of the Puebloans would be an option. That way you could have a leader like Zutacapan from the Acoma Pueblo and not have to worry about using a sacred language.

Russia's tundra bonuses are game-y enough and probably the closest one can expect to get to a "tundra" civilization.

I'd hope for a Yakut/Sahka civ if they could be an official civ though that's admittedly a very big if.

But, while clan or long houses were used by several Native groups from the Northwest to the central Northeast, the Crest Pole is pretty much Iconic to the Northwestern tribes. Also, it has so many functions that it could be a very multi-purpose Unique. Given that it was Cultural, Religious, Boundary Marker, Political/Diplomatic (the Shame Pole), and could be placed within the village (even within the Clan House) or out in the clan/tribal territory, it could be either a Unique Building or a Unique Improvement.

Far too flexible to leave as just a graphic add-on.

Definitely agreed!

By the way, I remember hearing that the Wabanaki Confederacy (or one of the specific tribes within the Confederacy) had a written language of sorts. Since that's very rare in Native North America, does anyone here happen to know a bit more about that!?

 

[Lonecat Nekophrodite]

Me
1. Argentina (Either led by Jose de San Martin, Roca or Juan Peron)
2. Mexico (Either Gen. Santa Ana or Benito Juarez, UU. Mexican 'Red Lancer' (They're a big fan of Lancers, either Native recruit stocks or hispanic or Irish ones), Unique Infrastructure: Hacienda )
3. Pueblo (May build city in mountains like Incas, City comes with more housing than usual.
4. Nassau (May capture enemy ships but only in melee combat, UU: Pirate (Can land!)
5. Iroquois (Where's Hiawatha?)

 

[Zaarin]

By the way, I remember hearing that the Wabanaki Confederacy (or one of the specific tribes within the Confederacy) had a written language of sorts. Since that's very rare in Native North America, does anyone here happen to know a bit more about that!?

Maya is the only language in the Americas that had a true writing system that's been deciphered. The rest of the Mesoamerican scripts were proto-writing. Likewise wiigwaasabak was pictographic and not true writing. (Not to say it couldn't contribute to an interesting unique ability of the Ojibwa replace the Cree next time around.) I can't find anything about Eastern Algonquians having any kind of writing or proto-writing, though. Wampum was used as a record keeping device and mnemonic by both Iroquoians and Northeastern Algonquians. All other Native American writing systems are post-contact, like Sequoyah's Cherokee syllabary or Canadian Aboriginal syllabics.

Pueblo (May build city in mountains like Incas

Puebloans didn't typically live in the mountains...

Iroquois (Where's Hiawatha?)

Hopefully replaced by someone historical like Joseph Brant/Thayendanegea.

 

[Lonecat Nekophrodite]

Maya is the only language in the Americas that had a true writing system that's been deciphered. The rest of the Mesoamerican scripts were proto-writing. Likewise wiigwaasabak was pictographic and not true writing. (Not to say it couldn't contribute to an interesting unique ability of the Ojibwa replace the Cree next time around.) I can't find anything about Eastern Algonquians having any kind of writing or proto-writing, though. Wampum was used as a record keeping device and mnemonic by both Iroquoians and Northeastern Algonquians. All other Native American writing systems are post-contact, like Sequoyah's Cherokee syllabary or Canadian Aboriginal syllabics.


Puebloans didn't typically live in the mountains...


Hopefully replaced by someone historical like Joseph Brant/Thayendanegea.

And who used to dwell in a cave city that located either in Texas or New Mexico? Can't remember the name of that city but it's more or less like North American version of Petra. (Should it be Wonder or buildable city?)

But AFAIK 'Publeos' as presented in American Conquest are the most urbanized North American natives. they can build 'City' as a building that combined Fort and Dwelling in one unit.
They're also more adaptable to Europeans (including White Americans) tactics including the use of firearms

Also which tribe did the Iron Jacket led?

 

[PhoenicianGold]

And who used to dwell in a cave city that located either in Texas or New Mexico? Can't remember the name of that city but it's more or less like North American version of Petra. (Should it be Wonder or buildable city?)

But AFAIK 'Publeos' as presented in American Conquest are the most urbanized North American natives. they can build 'City' as a building that combined Fort and Dwelling in one unit.
They're also more adaptable to Europeans (including White Americans) tactics including the use of firearms

Also which tribe did the Iron Jacket led?

Mesa Verde is actually in Colorado, although the ancestral Puebloans had road networks covering at least good portions of the four corners: Utah, Arizona, and New Mexico. Roughly, where the Navajo and Hopi Reservations are today.

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

Also which tribe did the Iron Jacket led?

"Iron Shirt" or "Iron Jacket" (Native name Pohibit Quasha ) was a Comanche war chief who wore an old Spanish Conquistador's cuirass into battle and so was considered impervious to enemy bullets and weapons. Unfortunately, no cuirass that you can wear and still move in is impervious to .60 to .69 caliber rifle bullets, and he was killed in battle with Texas Rangers in 1858.

 

[Zaarin]

And who used to dwell in a cave city that located either in Texas or New Mexico? Can't remember the name of that city but it's more or less like North American version of Petra.

To add to what PhoenicianGold said, in game terms, the lands erstwhile inhabited by the Anasazi/Ancestral Puebloans are hills not mountains, though.

But AFAIK 'Publeos' as presented in American Conquest are the most urbanized North American natives.

The Mississippians, North Eastern Native Americans (both Iroquoian and to a lesser extent Algonquian), and PNW could all be described as urbanized. The Southwest was much less sophisticated at the time of contact than it had been in the past before the collapse of the Anasazi/Ancestral Puebloan civilization, which, much like the Maya, fell to pieces when the climate became drier and the carrying capacity of the land dropped.

 

[TahamiTsunami]

So I managed to find out that what I was thinking of was the Mi'kmaq hieroglyphic writing. Of course its debated if it fully qualifies as a writing system instead of a memory device or even how old it is, but it is rather interesting and maybe adds some bonus points for a Wabanaki civ.

Looking at the poll now, I'm definitely amused to see that Argentina and Colombia are still neck and neck (understandable since both are wanted for similar reasons). I'm thrilled to see the Tlingit, Pueblo, and Muisca climb higher but still a little sad that the Mesoamerican options are still a bit low.

If there was a civ led by Zutacapan from the Acoma Pueblo, would it be better to call the civ Keres, Pueblo, or would either work? I know we're moving away from most blobs (and for good reason) but there are some that most people seem to be okay with as long as its reasonable like a Zimbabwe civ (which could potentially have elements of Mutapa, Rozwi, etc.).

I'd just like to add that Iron Jacket is definitely up there as one of the coolest leader names!

 

[Zaarin]

So I managed to find out that what I was thinking of was the Mi'kmaq hieroglyphic writing.

It looks like it's similar in concept to Ojibwa wiigwaasabak, which I mentioned in my post above.

If there was a civ led by Zutacapan from the Acoma Pueblo, would it be better to call the civ Keres, Pueblo, or would either work?

I'd vote for Keres. "Puebloan" is more of a culture zone that includes a lot of unrelated peoples and only excludes the Navajo and Apache as relative newcomers to the region.

 

[Lonecat Nekophrodite]

"Iron Shirt" or "Iron Jacket" (Native name Pohibit Quasha ) was a Comanche war chief who wore an old Spanish Conquistador's cuirass into battle and so was considered impervious to enemy bullets and weapons. Unfortunately, no cuirass that you can wear and still move in is impervious to .60 to .69 caliber rifle bullets, and he was killed in battle with Texas Rangers in 1858.

1. What did his Spanish Cuirass (possibly worn by a so called 'conquistador') looks like? is it a typical renaissance plate cuirass just like what conquistadores wore or John Smith and co. did long ago?
2. Did a said rifle that slain him a Minie' rifle?
3. Is this the very reasons why US Army Cavalry rooted themselves in their own cav doctrines rather than following fancy European settings like Cuirassiers, Carabiniers, Hussars, Lancers while Mexican Army is fond of such fancy units. It is said they had cuirassiers too. Is this a very reasons there's no Cuirassiers in US Army?

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

1. What did his Spanish Cuirass (possibly worn by a so called 'conquistador') looks like? is it a typical renaissance plate cuirass just like what conquistadores wore or John Smith and co. did long ago?
2. Did a said rifle that slain him a Minie' rifle?
3. Is this the very reasons why US Army Cavalry rooted themselves in their own cav doctrines rather than following fancy European settings like Cuirassiers, Carabiniers, Hussars, Lancers while Mexican Army is fond of such fancy units. It is said they had cuirassiers too. Is this a very reasons there's no Cuirassiers in US Army?

1. Accounts call it a Cuirass, which would be steel plate, but the report from John S. Ford, the Texas Ranger commander of the force that killed him, says it was "chain mail". This would make it the lighter armor that the Conquistadors switched to after the 16th century when they realized that the expensive plate armor was not really required against native weapons.
2. According to Ford's report, he was killed by a 'Buffalo Gun' fired by a Jim Pockmark, a Tonkawa native - half of Ford's force were Texas Rangers and volunteers, and other half Tonkawas who were 'traditional' enemies of the Comanche. "Buffalo Gun" was later applied to the Sharps .50 caliber breechloader after the Civil War, so this may have been one of the early Sharps Model 1851 or Model 1853 breechloading single-shot rifles. Technically, this fired a 'minie' type expanding bullet, but 'minie rifle' usually refers to the muzzle-loading Rifled Muskets that armed most of the infantry on both sides during the US Civl War.
3. Since there was no official US government or US Army involvement in Pohibit Quasha's demise, I doubt it. The US Army had already adopted a short rifle (Harper's Ferry Model 1803) which could be used from horseback and Colt introduced his revolver before the US Army ever formed any mounted regiments, so the equipment that both made firepower a possibilty for mounted and dismounted cavalry action and made armor only marginally useful was already available. It was natural to take advantage of this when the first US Army Dragoon, Mounted Rifle and Cavalry regiments were formed. Even more important to the US government was that armor and the heavy horses to carry armored men were expensive, and the US in peacetime never spent a penny extra on its military throughout the 19th and early 20th centuries.

 

[Lonecat Nekophrodite]

^And thus American ranchers (and later--cowboys) don't breed heavy war horses much?
Yet Mexican Army of the 1840s are pretty much a clone to European Royals with some native lancers and light infantry added to the mix. Did American 'mounted riflemen' proved superior to Euro wannabes like that?

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

^And thus American ranchers (and later--cowboys) don't breed heavy war horses much?
Yet Mexican Army of the 1840s are pretty much a clone to European Royals with some native lancers and light infantry added to the mix. Did American 'mounted riflemen' proved superior to Euro wannabes like that?

The American "mustang" or Quarterhorse is, in fact, about the same size as the "Courser" type horse used in the late Middle Ages, but the ranchers tended to breed more for stamina and hardiness (low maintenance) than ability to carry heavy loads.
Can't speak to the Mounted Rifles, but during the Mexican War one of the US Dragoon regiments made a famous charge that overran a Mexican artillery position. A painting of it was one of the US Army history commemorative series of prints from the Office of the Chief of Military History several decades ago. All of the US Army's mounted regiments from their beginnings were trained for both mounted and dismounted action, which is why I think a function of that sort for a US Cavalry unit would have made a much better UU than the Rough Riders, which was a single Volunteer Cavalry unit that spent its entire combat career dismounted.

 

[TahamiTsunami]

I think at least many of us would agree that one of the Puebloans and the Mississippians would be S tier choices for new native civs IF they could be done.

While far from certain, at least the possibility of a Hopi or Keres civ gives hope for a Puebloan civ even if the possible leaders wouldn't be from the height of Puebloan power.

The Mississippians don't currently have the most notable leaders either though Quigualtam and Tuskaloosa are at least options to consider.

What I'm getting to is what would you guys think of trying to add these civs even without the most notable leader choices? Would you prefer them being represented by city states like Cahokia and other alternatives like the Navajo, Choctaw, Natchez, etc?

 

[Zaarin]

The Mississippians don't currently have the most notable leaders either though Quigualtam and Tuskaloosa are at least options to consider.

Yeah, the Mississippians are a somewhat different challenge than Minoa or Harappa. We have leaders, cities, and languages for the Mississippians: it's just the leaders we have are the equivalent of not knowing any of the Roman emperors except Romulus Augustulus.

What I'm getting to is what would you guys think of trying to add these civs even without the most notable leader choices? Would you prefer them being represented by city states like Cahokia and other alternatives like the Navajo, Choctaw, Natchez, etc?

In the case of the Mississippians, I think it's better to represent the Mississippians proper with a Cahokia city-state and choose one of the successor confederacies as a full civ, the Choctaw being the ideal choice IMO.

 

[TahamiTsunami]

Yeah, the Mississippians are a somewhat different challenge than Minoa or Harappa. We have leaders, cities, and languages for the Mississippians: it's just the leaders we have are the equivalent of not knowing any of the Roman emperors except Romulus Augustulus.


In the case of the Mississippians, I think it's better to represent the Mississippians proper with a Cahokia city-state and choose one of the successor confederacies as a full civ, the Choctaw being the ideal choice IMO.

Yeah, I agree that a Cahokia city-state and a Choctaw full civ is probably the best alternative to a full Mississippian civ. I would hope that Quigualtam and Tuskaloosa (within the spectrum of the last leaders of a civ) would've been closer to Cleopatra than Romulus Augustulus but until we find out more somehow it doesn't appear likely. I'm still looking up more on him but so far Zutacapan from the Acoma Pueblo also appears to be in a similar standing. For what its worth, Quigualtam did send some pretty sassy messages to de Soto and attacked his expedition with canoes so I guess that's something but I'm not sure if that on it's own is enough.

Overall, I just find it to be such a shame that the Mississippians and Puebloans don't seem likely to make it in the game. Especially since they are so close to having everything that's needed! Native North America (north of Mesoamerica) is still struggling to even have a regular staple in the series so it's quite a blow to lose out on 2 civs that, if they could be included, virtually no reasonable person would question their worthiness as civs. Outside of them, even the most notable, settled, and powerful Native American tribes seem to struggle to be seen as 'worthy' of inclusion even by some on these forums let alone the larger gaming community and Firaxis itself. I'm glad that we have the Cree and it seems likely that we'll get at least one more in another expansion. However, assuming that the second one is another new one like the Navajo, etc., it starts to imply that Native North American representation in the game is like a ferris wheel where even the Iroquois have to cycle in and out of games instead being a regular staple right alongside America and England.

I'm aware that Africa and Polynesia also suffer from lacking in representation of their strongest nations, but it seems to me that Native North America (and similarly Native South America) not only has the least representation but also struggles the most to be recognized for and have any solid staples from game to game.

 

[Patine]

Yeah, I agree that a Cahokia city-state and a Choctaw full civ is probably the best alternative to a full Mississippian civ. I would hope that Quigualtam and Tuskaloosa (within the spectrum of the last leaders of a civ) would've been closer to Cleopatra than Romulus Augustulus but until we find out more somehow it doesn't appear likely. I'm still looking up more on him but so far Zutacapan from the Acoma Pueblo also appears to be in a similar standing. For what its worth, Quigualtam did send some pretty sassy messages to de Soto and attacked his expedition with canoes so I guess that's something but I'm not sure if that on it's own is enough.

Overall, I just find it to be such a shame that the Mississippians and Puebloans don't seem likely to make it in the game. Native North America (north of Mesoamerica) is still struggling to even have a regular staple in the series so it's quite a blow to lose out on 2 civs that, if they could be included, virtually no reasonable person would question their worthiness as civs. Outside of them, even the most notable, settled, and powerful Native American tribes seem to struggle to be seen as 'worthy' of inclusion even by some on these forums let alone the larger gaming community and Firaxis itself. I'm glad that we have the Cree and it seems likely that we'll get at least one more in another expansion. However, assuming that the second one is another new one like the Navajo, etc., it starts to imply that Native North American representation in the game is like a ferris wheel where even the Iroquois have to cycle in and out of games instead being a staple right alongside America and England.

I'm aware that Africa and Polynesia also suffer from lacking in representation of their strongest nations, but it seems to me that Native North America (and similarly Native South America) not only has the least representation but also struggles the most to be recognized for and have any solid staples from game to game.

In Civ2 (back in 1996), there were only three civ's who had default starts in the Western Hemisphere - the Americans, the Sioux, and the Aztecs, and likewise, only the Egyptians, the Carthaginians, and the Zulus had default starts on Africa. The starting spots in Europe and Asia were much more crowded, and Australia and Oceania were completely empty of starting default civ's. Of course, though Civ2 had 21 default civ's, the fact that the game only allowed seven civ's (plus Barbarians) in any given game at once meant it wasn't AS crowded per game, but the distribution is still notable.

 

[TahamiTsunami]

In Civ2 (back in 1996), there were only three civ's who had default starts in the Western Hemisphere - the Americans, the Sioux, and the Aztecs, and likewise, only the Egyptians, the Carthaginians, and the Zulus had default starts on Africa. The starting spots in Europe and Asia were much more crowded, and Australia and Oceania were completely empty of starting default civ's. Of course, though Civ2 had 21 default civ's, the fact that the game only allowed seven civ's (plus Barbarians) in any given game at once meant it wasn't AS crowded per game, but the distribution is still notable.

I'd be curious to see how the number of European, Asian, and middle eastern has changed since then for comparison.

There's been some improvements since then but not much and not nearly enough as we would like (I'd want Mali and Iroquois to be regular staples instead of cycling spots).

While Africa still has plenty of room left, I'll say that its civs have at least been a little more consistent than native North America. Egypt, Zulu, and Carthage (technically Phoenicia now but we know Carthage isn't really gone) are all still in the game while the Sioux haven't appeared again in a long time and some of us are still hoping for the Iroquois.