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Poll: What new civilizations from the Americas would you like to see in the future?

Discussion in 'Civ - Ideas & Suggestions' started by Alexander's Hetaroi, Aug 24, 2019.

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What 5 never before seen civilizations from the Americas would you like to see in the future?

  1. Navajo

    22 vote(s)
    34.4%
  2. (Gran) Colombia

    25 vote(s)
    39.1%
  3. Argentina

    24 vote(s)
    37.5%
  4. Mexico

    20 vote(s)
    31.3%
  5. Muisca

    16 vote(s)
    25.0%
  6. Haida

    12 vote(s)
    18.8%
  7. Tlinglit

    17 vote(s)
    26.6%
  8. Choctaw

    4 vote(s)
    6.3%
  9. Cherokee

    22 vote(s)
    34.4%
  10. Creek

    7 vote(s)
    10.9%
  11. Chikasaw

    2 vote(s)
    3.1%
  12. Seminole

    4 vote(s)
    6.3%
  13. Shawnee

    4 vote(s)
    6.3%
  14. Powhatan

    7 vote(s)
    10.9%
  15. Apache

    11 vote(s)
    17.2%
  16. Tupi

    3 vote(s)
    4.7%
  17. Guarini

    2 vote(s)
    3.1%
  18. Taino

    13 vote(s)
    20.3%
  19. Comanche

    8 vote(s)
    12.5%
  20. Pueblo

    15 vote(s)
    23.4%
  21. Hopi

    1 vote(s)
    1.6%
  22. Chumash

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  23. Olmec

    4 vote(s)
    6.3%
  24. Zapotec

    4 vote(s)
    6.3%
  25. Mixtec

    4 vote(s)
    6.3%
  26. Cuba

    6 vote(s)
    9.4%
  27. Wampanoag

    2 vote(s)
    3.1%
  28. Pirate Republic of Nassau

    7 vote(s)
    10.9%
  29. Inuit

    18 vote(s)
    28.1%
  30. Other (Explain in your post)

    7 vote(s)
    10.9%
Multiple votes are allowed.
  1. Henri Christophe

    Henri Christophe Chieftain

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    Of course not, by this definition almost any country in America was an Empire, even Brazil isn't an empire.

    And I know Brazilian history, as I said, I'm brazilian. The question is, why was the Pedro I an emperor and not just a king?
    Acctualy I know the answer, because he auto-proclamed him self emperor and nothing more.

    Henri Christophe isn't a populist leader, he was a general and libertador, of full african blood. And his right to be king of Haiti was linked of his full african heritage. The Petión, who proclamed the republic, was a mix-race.
    Acctually Henri Christophe had more rightness than Napoleon to be proclame himself emperor, because Henri proclame himself emperor after he achieve the independece of Haiti side by side with the other libertadors as Touissan Louverture, Jean Jaque Dessalines and Petión. Napoleon yes is just a populist, with a short lived empire.

    Of course the best option to be an emperor of Haiti was Touissan Louverture, but he died before the independence of Haiti was achieved. Jean Jaque Dessalines wasn't a rightness leader and was murded and of the two libertadors who left, just one has full african blood, and in one afro-centric nation as Haiti that means he was the only possible choice to be an emperor.
     
    Last edited: Oct 21, 2019
  2. Henri Christophe

    Henri Christophe Chieftain

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    I was looking this trend, have a lot of US-Native Americans who I never listening before, despite the Iroquois, I don't like that much the others, because of Civ 5 I really try searching better about the Shoshone and even their is not so cool. Mexican's Indians was way better options to be in civilization, the Maya are, by far, the most amazing society ever had in America's (even they never been an empire, before our friend Patine thought that :lol:). And the most amazing, for me, about the Maya is they still living, they are the majority of Guatemala country and of some states of México as Chiapas and Yucatán, they still speaking their Maya language and also can have a XX century unique unity, as the comunist wariors of EZLN. (I don't believe the game will do that, because just Germany is allowed to have things out of ther mainstream history-line).

    But have one civilization in this trend who is very underlooked, I don't think they can appear in this game to soon, but they deserve. The Guarani.
    Before the arriving of europeans the Guarani and the Tupi was almost the same nation, even the great Jesuitic priest of this area, Anchieta, defend this idea.
    But before the arriving of europeans, more especific the arriving of Jesuitic priests the situation start to change, the Guarani was as the Kongo king and just really like the idea of Christianity, and together build a amazing society in the silver-mesopothamia.
    3 times the Guarani society had war against the Brasil. ~1640, ~1750, ~1860. The first one is the only one the Guarani acctualy won, in the river battle of M'bororé and their leaders was jesuitic priests (don't so cool to a civlization game), but one of the Indians leaders of this time is called Guayrá, I can't find that much about his life, just his name:sad:

    The second war against Brazil is a little more well know, by brazilians, it is know as the Guaranitc wars, that war is a result of century conflict between the kingdoms of Portugal and Spain to control the Silver-River. Basically Portugal trade their city Colônia do Sacrameto in south Uruguay, really close to Buenos Aires, for 7 guarani cities in the east side of Uruguai river, the Guarani their don't accepeted so easy and have a great war, their most famous leader was the Sepé Tiaraju and he use a fancy Spanish uniforme, as Lautaro of the Mapuches.

    And the last great leader of Guarani peoples isn't Guarani himself, was Solano López the hereditary dictator of Paraguay republic, I guess he is well know, but I don't know what the people here think to have a white guy leading an Indigenous civilization, the true was, he was the last great leader of Guaranic society, but sometimes the players here don't like that much the true.
     
    Last edited: Oct 22, 2019
  3. Patine

    Patine Deity

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    Okay, you're just ranting and rambling on, now. The original point of this particular discussion has obviously long been passed by.
     
  4. Henri Christophe

    Henri Christophe Chieftain

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    If you have any good argue, you can back to the Haiti-Question, I move on because your argues was so weak and I also want to speak a little bit of the Guaranis, other civilization who I also admire.
     
    PhoenicianGold likes this.
  5. Alexander's Hetaroi

    Alexander's Hetaroi Deity

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    Considering the U.S. doesn't have a native tribe represented yet, since the Cree are from present-day Canada, I think it is about time that they should have one. Either way I believe we'll get one soon along with the Maya.

    Even though there are still people of Maya descent living there is no way they would give them any uniques past the Mesoamerican post-classic era. A Yaomitl (atlatl) UU replacing the slinger would be my choice.
     
  6. Henri Christophe

    Henri Christophe Chieftain

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    I was looking here, the Cree are also in the USA, but, for sure they are more Canadians. I'm fine with more US-Indians, but some more cool than Shoshone, maybe Cherokee, Apaches or the Lakotas (who the Sioux are part of), Have so few native americans, they need to put the coolest.

    Propably the Atlatl will be again the Maya UU, because, as I said, just Germany is allowed, in this game, to have stuffs outside their time-line of existing. And also a communist-narcotraficant warrior from XX century is so polemic to this game :lol:
     
  7. PhoenicianGold

    PhoenicianGold King

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    I like the idea of the Tupi-Guarani filling out the rest of South American along with Colombia.

    However, as I've observed, the roster is still generally limiting itself to "empires" where they existed (which covers most of the map), and otherwise aggressively expansionist tribes that held large territories (Cree, Mapuche, Maori).

    In this respect, until the roster is opened up to smaller ideas of "civilizations," the Guarani feel more like a "kingdom" or "city-state" than an empire. Kind of existing in a middle space between Vietnam (which sits at perhaps the lowest of what can qualify as an "empire" for VI's purposes) and something which was absolutely never an empire like Finland. They have a lack of surrounding empires making them more likely to be included as a "tribe with large territory," but they are also wedged up against the Mapuche who fit the idea of "empire" just a bit better and the tendency of VI is to rep the big guys as civs and the smaller surrounding guys as city-states.

    So purely addressing this from the perspective of game design, I suspect--unless the idea of "civilization" is opened up more with future DLC--the Guarani would be a city-state instead, much like Armenia, Afghanistan, Czechia, etc. Particularly since there are other regions of the map that are still empty whereas the 'Guays don't seem to be a huge priority for TSL-map-filling.

    But by all means keep promoting them. I'm all for a hundred civs in VI, however improbable that may be.
     
  8. Alexander's Hetaroi

    Alexander's Hetaroi Deity

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    The Cree that live in the U.S. today migrated down from Canada and only live in like Montana, so I don't really count that as being from the U.S.

    I agree that there are better options than giving us the Shoshone, of course that was a last minute replacement when they couldn't put the Pueblo in. My personal favorite is the Navajo who still inhabit most of their home region today and aren't completely a nomadic tribe, like other favorites.
     
  9. Patine

    Patine Deity

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    Fun fact: the Navajo (and Apache, too) languages are highly territorially non-contiguous members of the same language family as the Tlingit and Dene far, far to their north.
     
  10. Alexander's Hetaroi

    Alexander's Hetaroi Deity

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    Yes, but the Navajo proper didn't start farming and domesticating animals until they reached the present day Southwest U.S.
    This actually helps along with my point about possibly making them a "land Maori" in terms of their starting location. I think it would be interesting if you couldn't found their first city as them until you have met another Civ, mimicking where they stopped being nomadic hunter and gatherers when they encountered the Pueblo.
     
  11. HumanMap

    HumanMap Chieftain

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    Why do people want the likes of Santa Ana or Diaz as the leader for Mexico when there are leaders that Mexicans actually like that would be much better options! The mentioned Juarez as well as Obregon, Morelos, or Cardenaz. The devs could also go the way of national leaders like the Margon brothers or Villa or Zapata. This focus on Santa Ana and Diaz is exhausting and seems to be very US centered.
     
  12. Patine

    Patine Deity

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    This is very true. Having Santa Ana as a leader, who lost half of his nation's territory he started with by the end of his tenure - it would be like having Buchanan as an American leader... :p

    Also, ejidos would be far more appropriate and iconic as a Mexican Unique Infrastructure than haciendas by far.
     
    Last edited: Oct 22, 2019
  13. HumanMap

    HumanMap Chieftain

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    Ejidos would be awesome and Adelitas as a unique unit (I've seen Rurales as a suggestion but that sounds like having Pinkertons as a US unique which I don't think is a good idea)
     
  14. Henri Christophe

    Henri Christophe Chieftain

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    I don't agree that much the needed to be an empire Australia, Canada, Cree, Mapuche, Maori, Kongo, Georgia and Scotia never were empires. The two first still ruled by the queen of England, the 3 next are just a not united society and the last 3 was at least an united kingdom, but don't fullfil the only requirement to be an empire, they never conquer another nation. Each one of they have their own reason to be part of this game, despite never been an empire.

    As you start your post saying about the Tupi-Guarani as just one nation, I would show you this map about the distribuiton of Tupi-Guarani society around ~1500, the oranges are the Tupis and green are the Guaranis and the circled region where all they come from (Probably around the year ~1000).



    Around the ~1600 start florish the Jesuitc reductions on the Guarani lands, each cross in the map below is a reduction (who can also be understand as a city, they called reduction because the Guarani, before, was nomadic and they are reducing their area of livings to cities).
    Some Guarani-states emerge at this time, the green one is Itatim, the blue one is the Guairá, by the way, Guairá is the name of a Guarani-Leader of this area.
    Maybe you are not familiarized to southamerica geography, but this area on this map is bigger than modern France.
    The white arrows of this map was about the Paulist invasions, Paulists are Brazilians who born in the city of São Paulo and they was well know as slave hunters, now a days we called this "units" as Bandeirantes, just because still existing the city of São Paulo and Paulistis nowadays don't meaning more slave-hunters :lol:.
    The red X on the map is where happens the battle of M'bororé, where the Guarani defeat the Paulists, after this invasion the king Philip II allowed the Guarani had fire weapons to defend they self against another Brazilian invasion.



    After this tragic Paulist invasions just 30 cities survive, and they florish for more than an hundred years, as is showing the next map.
    The Guaranitc wars happens in the green cities in this map, they are know as the 7 cities of the mission. In the Treaty of Madri of 1750 the Spain trade this 7 cities and Portugal give-up the city of Colonia do Sacramento, who was just in front of the Buenos Aires.



    The Guarani don't accepted that and had a war, I already told about that, but have a good movie in english, with Robert de Niro, about this war, propably the only movie about this war already made. But the Guarani of this movie was wearing as traditional Guaranies of XVI century... and at XVIII century they are already using western clothes.


    After the independence of Latin-America, Paraguay become the successor of the Guarani heritage, more than ~90% of the Paraguayans speak the Guarani language as their mother language and untill ~1870 the majoroty of the population was Guarani, after the war Brasil/Argentina/Uruguay X Paraguay, almost all men was dead and Paraguay start to encourage Italian immigration, so, today the most of population are Mestizo, but with a strong proud of their Guarani heritage. (And the most important, even the Mestizo speak Guarani as their mother language).

    And you told about the Guarani be a city State. I don't like that Idea because they aren't a city state, how it can be a city state called Guarani? :lol:
    But some of their cities can be a City State as San Miguel, San Cosme, Jesús, Trinidad or San Ignacio Mirin, This cities are well preserved nowadays and I visited, as tourist, with my dad when I was in Paraguay. But the most important city of the Mission was San Ignacio Guazu, but the Guarani never abandoned this city, so the old buildings don't survive and isn't so cool to do tourism, but I visited there anyway. :lol:
    But, for city states I think the Colonia do Sacramento more cool, because they had a more important roll in South America history.
     
    Last edited: Oct 22, 2019
  15. Patine

    Patine Deity

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    Actually, to be fair, Kongo and Georgia DID conquer other nations, and so did Scotland in the Dark Ages and early Medieval period, just not large, major or well-known ones. Also, the Cree and Mapuche did forcibly absorb other tribes (the Cree Headman descended from Poundmaker telling Firaxis "war and violence were never the Cree's way until the White Man arrived," is full of crap, ultimately), and there are remains and evidence that there was a more primitive Melanesian people in the New Zealand Islands when the Maoris first arrived - where are they now?
     
  16. Lonecat Nekophrodite

    Lonecat Nekophrodite Prince

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    Why? Because he lost his war against Texan rebellions when he ALMOST win the war. Moments he was captured by (American) Texans was when his army was taking a campaiging rest while advancing towards Texan last citadel. He wouldn't lose a large chunk of Mexico to Anglophonic Nation if this ambush fails or didn't happen.

    He has better chance of winning y'know.

    Juarez may be good. but you want Emperor Maximilian instead?
     
  17. Henri Christophe

    Henri Christophe Chieftain

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    I don't know the Georgia history that much, so I do'nt will speak about they. But I was searching about the Scott history, when they conquer the Anglo-Saxon? We need to remember the boarder land was already of celtic peoples, conquer lands in the boarder means conquer their own nation.

    About the Kongo, I read a book about their history in May of this year, and one miss conception I saw already in this forum, Kongo never conquer the Ndongo kingdom,maybe the only "nation" who was inside the Kongo kingdom and isn't Bakongo was the Pygmies. But the Pygmies is hard to speak about, because they are everywhere and never be united, also, as far as I know, the Pygmies under the Kongo kingdom speak the Bakongo language as their mother language, but doesn't have the same rights as others Kongoleses.

    And about the societies before the Maori, one option can be the assimilation. That is really comon in world history, war isn't the only way to overcome another civilization.
     

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    Last edited: Oct 23, 2019
  18. Patine

    Patine Deity

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    The core of what became the Kingdom of Scotland was the Kingdom of Alba, which conquered the Kingdoms of Strathclyde, Galloway, Dal Riatu, Fortiu, the remainder of the Pictish Kingdom, the Hebrides, and for a time the Isle of Mann, as well as Orkney and Shetland directly from Norway. Saying that this was "already in MODERN Scottish borders (key word, MODERN) and that they were all Celts (other than the Hebrides, Orkney, and Shetland, and POSSIBLY the Picts, as there's some doubt on their ethnic and linguistic heritage, though most historians have accepted them as Celts, though not Gaelic Celts), means they did NO conquest or their conquest doesn't count as such, somehow, is a strange, and even revisionist conceit from a modern viewpoint, but one that shows an utter lack of perspective toward the time period in question.

    As for the Maori, they were a proud and violent warrior culture - that could already be clearly seen by their own tribal warfare and the wars they engaged with against the British when the British first arrived and began dealing with them. I believe they were an offshoot, at some point, of the feared (in it's day) Tu'i Tonga Oceanian Empire (and that was an "Empire," by the way, not just a city-state like someone very recently on this thread suggested). Thus peaceful and gentle assimilation of another people by the Maori seems hard to believe or be a credible guess.

    Well, congratulations, you've done it! You've come up with a leader (Maximilian) that the Mexicans will probably find even more unpopular than Santa Ana or Diaz by far! You seem to have a very warped view of Mexico and it's history, or perhaps you secretly just don't like Mexicans.
     
  19. HumanMap

    HumanMap Chieftain

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    Why would you think I want Maximilian? I'm saying that there are leaders that Mexicans actually are proud of, why make it a leader that Mexicans aren't proud of?
     
  20. HumanMap

    HumanMap Chieftain

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    Srsly
     

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