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Poll: what new European civs would you like to see in the future of Civ franchise?

Discussion in 'Civ - Ideas & Suggestions' started by Krajzen, Aug 21, 2019.

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Choose 5 new European civs you'd like to see most

  1. Italy in united form

    48 vote(s)
    37.2%
  2. Moors/Andalusia/Cordoba

    38 vote(s)
    29.5%
  3. Charlemagne's Frankish/Carolingian Empire

    25 vote(s)
    19.4%
  4. Florence, Genoa or some other individual Italian state

    29 vote(s)
    22.5%
  5. Ireland

    41 vote(s)
    31.8%
  6. Belgium/Flanders

    11 vote(s)
    8.5%
  7. Switzerland

    19 vote(s)
    14.7%
  8. Normans

    20 vote(s)
    15.5%
  9. Goths (or other Migration Era people)

    38 vote(s)
    29.5%
  10. Bohemia (Czechs)

    33 vote(s)
    25.6%
  11. Lithuania

    20 vote(s)
    15.5%
  12. Kievan Rus (separately from Russia)

    17 vote(s)
    13.2%
  13. Cossack Ukraine

    8 vote(s)
    6.2%
  14. Romania

    23 vote(s)
    17.8%
  15. Bulgarian Empire

    31 vote(s)
    24.0%
  16. Serbia

    12 vote(s)
    9.3%
  17. Armenia (culturally 'European')

    35 vote(s)
    27.1%
  18. Croatia

    2 vote(s)
    1.6%
  19. Finland

    18 vote(s)
    14.0%
  20. Ancient Germania

    4 vote(s)
    3.1%
  21. Gauls

    29 vote(s)
    22.5%
  22. Burgundy

    6 vote(s)
    4.7%
  23. Wales

    12 vote(s)
    9.3%
  24. Albania (Skanderbeg)

    3 vote(s)
    2.3%
  25. Yugoslavia (Tito)

    6 vote(s)
    4.7%
  26. Individual German state (Prussia, Saxony, Bavaria, Teutons etc)

    7 vote(s)
    5.4%
  27. Papal State

    17 vote(s)
    13.2%
  28. 'Slavs' (Samo, Great Moravia, Pagan Slavs etc)

    5 vote(s)
    3.9%
  29. Cumans/Pechenegs/Sarmatians/Khazars etc

    5 vote(s)
    3.9%
Multiple votes are allowed.
  1. JamesFaith

    JamesFaith Chieftain

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    That is actually not true - San Marino borders changed in 1464 when town Faetano become part of it.

    If my info is correct, oldest borders has Andorra (since 13. century).
     
    Last edited: Aug 30, 2019
  2. Lazy sweeper

    Lazy sweeper Warlord

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    Not Italy. Rome is more than enough.
    The Papal State, yes, that would be unprecedented.
    I would personally add Syracusa, with leader Pitagora and greek fire ships and city defence...
    and Morocco, Armenia, Etruscan, Gauls, Illyricum, Chalcii, Burgundii, Osterreich.
     
  3. Patine

    Patine Deity

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    Syracuse was not the one with the Greek Fire ships. That was a Byzantine innovation. Illyricum is too unattested in all the meaningful ways to make a civilization out of it. Burgundy, while a cultural crossroads between German, French, and Low Countries cultures in the Dark and Middle Ages, and the ally of England who captured Joan of Arc, does not really have a lot interesting potential on it's own - except maybe as a City-State. Armenia would be interesting, though.
     
    Zaarin likes this.
  4. Lazy sweeper

    Lazy sweeper Warlord

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    Plain false, Pitagora also had mirrors... Byzantine innovations? Ptah!
     
  5. Patine

    Patine Deity

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    Mirrors weren't the source of what's referred historically as "Greek Fire."
     
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  6. Lazy sweeper

    Lazy sweeper Warlord

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    Equivocally I have misplaced Archimede with Pitagora for Syracuse, and Greek Fire with the incendiary Mirrors, sorry for confusion.
    I believe those mirrors were mounted onto ships as well, but those legends are vague's sources...


    However, sources reporting Archimedes' use of mirrors are not credible. Rather, it has been argued that at the base of the legend there is a mistranslation of a Greek voice which would have referred to "incendiary substances" and would have been mistranslated as usaper mirrors.
    This was because Archimedes was able to burn the Roman ships, perfecting, however, jet weapons capable of throwing incendiary substances.

    Archimedes is said to have invented fabulous war machines: ranging from catapults to giant claws capable of grabbing the Roman ships besieging Syracuse.
    But one of his best-known, and most controversial, inventions was that of the ushering mirrors.
    The ustori mirrors were essentially concave mirrors capable of concentrating the sun's rays on ships, setting fires on the sails.
    The problem with this invention is that many historians do not consider it possible to keep the sun's rays focused on a moving ship, and that the initial fire would have increased in intensity very slowly, leaving time for the crew to extinguish it.
    But now Cesare Rossi, of the University of Naples, proposes an alternative scenario: as both Petrarca and Leonardo da Vinci would suggest, Archimedes would invent steam cannons, which used the expansion of gas to launch large-shot projectiles. Speed.
    What about the mirrors? The mirrors would be used to heat these cannons.

    Archimedes' cannon would have exploited concave mirrors instead of flames because the weapon would be placed on wooden platforms, easily ignited. The power of the weapon was not only given by kinetic energy: the projectiles would in fact be hollow, and filled with sulfur, bitumen and other flammable substances.



    Romans did not kept secrets of the defeated, killed Archimedes for not revaling them its inventions, so all is left, are oral Sicilian tradition, not much for disciple of the Pitagorean school...
     
    Last edited: Sep 1, 2019
  7. Alexander's Hetaroi

    Alexander's Hetaroi Deity

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    But the Papal state would already include at least the city of Rome. Italy is different enough from the Roman Empire to warrant a civ at least. They gave us Venice already.
    Morocco also isn't European unless you are talking about Al-Andalus.
    Also I'm not sure the mirrors on the Syracuse's ships were meant to catch the enemies ships on fire, but used as blinding distractions, as it has been tested. But a "Greek fire" dromon ship would be more plausible for the Byzantines as been stated.
     
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  8. Lazy sweeper

    Lazy sweeper Warlord

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    Papal state could use Rome if Rome was not founded by other players, if not, it could use Ravenna, Pontecorvo, Beneventum, Avignon... one does not exclude the other.
    Morocco not european, fine.
    Syracuse mirrors could have been so big , triangulate... that thay could incinerate any ship in seconds, but where firmly on land; with the auxilia of flaming pottery containers, or bullets, was a devastating mixture. Its use on ships was used for communication, perhaps that made them faster, but I'm just speculating as for the blinds effects, too few sources av., it is plausible, that smaller ships could carry such pottery bullets and stir fire upon enemy, but at a much lesser damage extent than the Dromon fire, in open sea.
    Oil coming from riches already known to the Magna Greeks, and particularly the Syrian enclaves was widespread in the Pre-Arab world, and the Arabs of Cordoba (Morocco-al-Andalus) had the biggest public light system of all Europe while the rest of Europe was just bee wax.... aka complete darkness...
     
    Last edited: Sep 2, 2019
  9. AntSou

    AntSou Emperor

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    Rome and Italy are unrelated. Italy is a modern state.

    I'll keep repeating, we need more 19th century Civs. Italy fits the whole 'national self-determination' jazz better than most other Civs (in Europe).
     
  10. Zaarin

    Zaarin Chief Medical Officer, DS9

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    The Babylonian Captivity of the Pope was a real high point for the Catholic Church and the Papal states. :mischief:

    "Unrelated" is a strong word. Of course they're related, just like Rome and France are related and Rome and Spain are related. But the question is whether they're mutually exclusive, which I think we can agree they're not, albeit I have little desire for Renaissance Italy and none for 19th/20th century Italy.
     
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  11. Krajzen

    Krajzen Deity

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    I really can't understand how basing on this criteria you can simultaneously throw away Italy - completely different culturally to Rome, from different eras, incredibly important to global history, culture, economy and science, with a metric ton of diversity and possible gameplay mechanics - and instead propose Etruscans who are essentially 'Romans: Free Beta Version Trial'. Almost direct cultural ancestors of Rome, just hundred times worse documented and less impressive.

    Papal State doesn't work with religion system of Civ5-6 where anybody can get any religion or none. Papal State having any religion other than Catholic is ridiculous oxymoron, while 'forcing' it to always be guaranteed founder of C religion is bad gameplay mechanic.

    Syracusae was a city state, unfortunately (also that + Byzantium would mean we have four Greek civs in game :D )

    Armenia, Gauls and Burgundy are in the poll, Morocco is not from Europe, Austria was already in civ5 and ancient Illyrians were from what I read about them one of countless unimpressive unremarkable tribes of barbaric Europe ;)
     
    Metecury likes this.
  12. Patine

    Patine Deity

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    Bismarck of Germany, Venizelos of Greece (I know @Zaarin will be annoyed at the suggestion of yet another Helleno-Grecian), and maybe Bratianu of Romania would work in this regard in a similar timeframe, as well.
     
    Zaarin likes this.
  13. AntSou

    AntSou Emperor

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    Sure, they are related. Yet there's a greater cultural proximity between modern Italians and just about any modern culture than between Italians and Ancient Rome or between Greeks and Ancient Greeks. That's how culturally distant they are from each other, despite having existed in the same peninsula and the latter's language developing from the former.

    If an Italian communicates with a modern Turkish or Chinese, some things will be lost in translation, but you'll generally still be able to communicate. Hell, international relations would hardly be possible otherwise... or reddit. Or this forum.

    But if an Italian went back in time to speak to a Roman in perfect Latin, and even assuming he understood all the words being spoken back to him, he would not actually understand the meaning of what was being said. If even such simple concepts like Father and Home have such fundamentally different meanings to the Italian v the Roman, complex debate would be all but impossible by a layman. You'd need an experienced Anthropologist to decipher it.

    So sure, they are 'related', but saying so is just a meaningless truism. One thing must necessarily follow from a preceding event. If Hitler's great-grandparents had not met, Hitler would not have been born. Yet we don't start a study of the rise of the NSDAP by going back to the day his great-grandparents met. Of course it's related. His great-grandparents meeting is a fundamental preceding event. But that doesn't make it a meaningful event.

    That might look like a silly example but that's essentially what most national histories still narrate even today. People tend to seriously underplay how much of a cultural break modern cultures are from the ancestral cultures which existed in the same geographical region.

    In that sense, Modern Italy is not related to Ancient Rome. The foundational concepts of modern Italy did not exist in Ancient Rome. You would not be able to explain Modern Italy to a Roman, and the modern Italian will tend to interpret Ancient Rome by the concepts in existence today.

    You know whom you can explain Modern Italy to? A Turkish. Or a Chinese. Yet denying the cultural differences between modern Italians,Turks and Chinese would be bizarre. Ancient Romans are considerably more distant from Italians than even that.
     
  14. Alexander's Hetaroi

    Alexander's Hetaroi Deity

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    Rome also uses Ravenna on their city lists and Avignon is taken by France. I'm not too fond of civs taking away cities from others, and so far that hasn't been the case for this iteration of the game.
    That's why I've never thought of the Mughals coming in or Soviet Union as a separate civ for the same reason. For the same reason I forgot to mention that Syracuse is already a city for Greece and it's unlikely to make it in as well.

    Although I'd rather not the Papal States for reasons mentioned above, I don't think that is necessarily an argument to make against them. In a game where Arabia doesn't have to found Islam, but can found Judaism instead while being able to build cathedrals and have zen meditation, I think if you have a Pope leading the Papal States I don't think would have to be forced to found Catholicism.
     
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  15. Zaarin

    Zaarin Chief Medical Officer, DS9

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    Worse documented? Yes, sadly. Less impressive? Only if your only metric for evaluation is square kilometers owned. Rome made very few original contributions to human civilization; their greatest accomplishment by far was leveraging the success and innovations of others. (Also culturally, religiously, and especially linguistically the Etruscans were very different from their Latin subjects. Despite being located in the Italian Peninsula, Etruria much more resembled the cultures of the Near East, which is doubtless why many archaeologists once proposed they came from Anatolia [I don't think that hypothesis prevails now].) I'm not saying I want an Etruscan civilization--they have the same problem, albeit to a lesser extent, as faces Minoa or Harappa--but calling them "prototype Rome" is extremely reductive.

    I'd point out that despite having a UA called "The Last Prophet," Civ's Arabia is perfectly capable of founding Buddhism or Taoism if it wants to.

    That is some interesting sophistry.
     
  16. Krajzen

    Krajzen Deity

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    So what if few city names are the same in Rome and Italy civ? Most of them are not. You can easily make two separate city lists. (this also is not a problem in Mughal/India case due to sheer size od India and its ability od 'retreating' to countless other city names)
    And even then - do what if there is Milan and Mediolanum in two city lists? Every civ game has in the same time Byzantium and Ottomans, with city lists largely consisting od the same entities but Turkicised, and this has never been a problem.

    Even the capital of Italy/Rome isn't that big deal, there are many solutions to the problem. In most games Italy and Rome wouldn't be together, so both would be free to use the name "Rome" for the capital, and if they were together then for example Rome gets Rome and Italy gets Turin (IIRC first actual capital of newly reunited Italy, either it or Milan).

    The difference is, Arabia is still civilization representing the entire culture and ethnicity and all its aspects, while Papal State is very precise political entity: the capital of Catholic religion. It is not that big stretch to imagine Jewish, Christian or Zoroastrian or pagan Arabian civ (Islam was built on those shoulders anyway) and not that big to go slightly further and imagine arabian peninsula being Arab people with other religion.
    I mean, Islam is not ethnic religion but universal one anyway - 3/4 of Muslims in the world are not Arab, and there are Arab Christians, and there were mamy Arab Jews and Zoroastrians in Peninsula before Muhammad, and there were Arab pagan civilizations before Islam (such as Nabatea) etc.

    Meanwhile Papal State is way more awkward because it is very precise theocratic state built completely around the idea of Catholicism. Papal State without Catholicism is like Soviet Union without Marxism. Arabs could and did exist without Islam, Papal State without Christianity couldn't.

    Power is power, and history always prefers those who grab the world by its throat rather than those who quietly have them prototype tools to do it centuries earier. And raw, practical power and influence stretching across continents is what IMO always had natural priority when 'rating' civilizations, not quiet, humble, nice originality in the corner.
     
    Last edited: Sep 2, 2019
  17. Alexander's Hetaroi

    Alexander's Hetaroi Deity

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    I was specifically referring to a Papal State civ which would have some of the same cities as Rome (Ravenna) and France (Avignon) as mentioned before. I never was implying Italy couldn't exist or Byzantium alongside Ottomans. As for the Mughals, I don't see it happening unless they break up India.
    I agree that you wouldn't even need to use Rome in the list of cities. My preferred leader would be Cosimo de'Medici and his capital would be Florence which then you can found afterwards Venice, Genoa, Milan, Naples. Bologna etc. with more of a Renaissance approach.

    The Arabia portrayed in this game, and all other games, however does end up representing the various Medieval caliphates that revolve around Islam, despite there being many different ethnicities and religions throughout.

    At the same time would a Israel/ Hebrew civ be forced to found Judaism considering that state was entirely built around it?

    I'm not trying to advocate for a Papal State civ by any means but it's something to think about. Sure the civ ability would have to be focused on whatever religion you have founded, but I still don't see the argument on why they would be forced to choose Catholicism every time, as the player, because the AI would certainly prefer it.
    This is a game where Confucius can found Zoroastrianism and Zoroaster can found Confucianism so I would have no problem if a Pope decides to recruit Martin Luther and found Sikhism.
     
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  18. Patine

    Patine Deity

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    But he didn't actually rule ITALY - he ruled about a third of modern Tuscany. He didn't even rule any of the cities you listed above.

    Indeed, and Saladin was neither an Arab nor ever held the title of Caliph.

    And I'd like to reiterate that the religion game mechanic of Civ6 is my LEAST favourite aspect of the game, and, in my opinion, the poorest and sloppiest in it's development and handling.
     
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  19. Imaus

    Imaus King

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    Which is why the Arabia civs should really dig deep to Pre-Islamic influence as well. South, East, and West Arabia all have societies to draw from. North Arabia became agents of whoever ruled the region until they finally took it over. So on and so on...
     
  20. Alexander's Hetaroi

    Alexander's Hetaroi Deity

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    Pericles and Gorgo never ruled all of the Greek city-states and it was the same with the Maya in all iterations of the game.
    It's the best solution, in my opinion, to get Italy as I don't want to play as an independent city-state, like Venice, or have attributes of 19th century unification and beyond. That way you can easily get alternate leaders depending on the city they ruled from.
     
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