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Poll: what new European civs would you like to see in the future of Civ franchise?

Discussion in 'Civ - Ideas & Suggestions' started by Krajzen, Aug 21, 2019.

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Choose 5 new European civs you'd like to see most

  1. Italy in united form

    43 vote(s)
    37.4%
  2. Moors/Andalusia/Cordoba

    35 vote(s)
    30.4%
  3. Charlemagne's Frankish/Carolingian Empire

    22 vote(s)
    19.1%
  4. Florence, Genoa or some other individual Italian state

    25 vote(s)
    21.7%
  5. Ireland

    36 vote(s)
    31.3%
  6. Belgium/Flanders

    8 vote(s)
    7.0%
  7. Switzerland

    15 vote(s)
    13.0%
  8. Normans

    20 vote(s)
    17.4%
  9. Goths (or other Migration Era people)

    33 vote(s)
    28.7%
  10. Bohemia (Czechs)

    30 vote(s)
    26.1%
  11. Lithuania

    16 vote(s)
    13.9%
  12. Kievan Rus (separately from Russia)

    15 vote(s)
    13.0%
  13. Cossack Ukraine

    7 vote(s)
    6.1%
  14. Romania

    21 vote(s)
    18.3%
  15. Bulgarian Empire

    29 vote(s)
    25.2%
  16. Serbia

    12 vote(s)
    10.4%
  17. Armenia (culturally 'European')

    33 vote(s)
    28.7%
  18. Croatia

    2 vote(s)
    1.7%
  19. Finland

    16 vote(s)
    13.9%
  20. Ancient Germania

    4 vote(s)
    3.5%
  21. Gauls

    26 vote(s)
    22.6%
  22. Burgundy

    5 vote(s)
    4.3%
  23. Wales

    10 vote(s)
    8.7%
  24. Albania (Skanderbeg)

    3 vote(s)
    2.6%
  25. Yugoslavia (Tito)

    6 vote(s)
    5.2%
  26. Individual German state (Prussia, Saxony, Bavaria, Teutons etc)

    5 vote(s)
    4.3%
  27. Papal State

    12 vote(s)
    10.4%
  28. 'Slavs' (Samo, Great Moravia, Pagan Slavs etc)

    4 vote(s)
    3.5%
  29. Cumans/Pechenegs/Sarmatians/Khazars etc

    3 vote(s)
    2.6%
Multiple votes are allowed.
  1. Patine

    Patine Deity

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    @PhoenicianGold seems very much hung up on an unrealistic and highly inaccurate vector of civilization conflation between the Nahua-speaking Aztec Triple Alliance and the post-1824 United Mexican States - one which just isn't there and I don't understand their fetish for clinging to it. They were even told by a poster who was a resident Mexican national (whose avatar name I've forgotten now) that such a conflation was highly unrealistic in portrayal, but @PhoenicianGold continues to hammer the point unabated, even taking "offense" at even measured and academically-presented disagreement on the matter (they actually called me a "fascist" and a "colonialist" for daring to disagree).
     
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  2. ButtBillionaire

    ButtBillionaire Warlord

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    Initially I didn't want to post a reply here, on account of my having made very lengthy replies about civs I'd like to see already, but in the end I'd like to air my opinions anyway. I'll be more brief this time.

    I see people wishing for Finland, likely in no small part due to Finns being the most significant northern Finno-Ugric ethnic group, but if Civ is to get a Finno-Ugric representation beyond Hungary, I honestly can't bring myself to wish for yet another historical kingdom or republic, when a much more unique option exists in the traditionally nomadic Sámi.

    Other than that, of the options presented above, I'd pick Italy, Bohemia, Romania and the Gauls.
     
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  3. Lonecat Nekophrodite

    Lonecat Nekophrodite Prince

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    1. Does Italy deserves its own civilization slot? What are distinctions between Italia and Roma? (Italians have darker hair and Romans have natural blonde? or they're just like Romans and Byzantines should be different civs?) even if both are seated in Rome and their home territory is Italy.
    2. Who described Venice better? Firaxis? or Total War series? (Appeared both in Medieval Total War and Empire Total War. in ETW They occupy Greece, Crete, and the Twelve Islands too, they might as well repesents Greek civ in Renaissance. What should be their civ theme colour? Red or blue? This also means that Venice runs more than one townships.)
    3. And As i said before, Charlemagne deserves a throne of France and Germany so he can chose his country to lead. Under his leadership, Aachen will be capitol of both respective civs, and Paladin will b his UU and available in any civ he leads.
     
  4. Patine

    Patine Deity

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    I glad I didn't have you as a history teacher. You would teach us how bland and similar every historical nation was to each other, and not to be fooled by others claiming civilizations centuries apart with obviously different cultures, societies, outlooks, and ways of doing things were at all distinct and separate in any more than the most banal and menial ways - they had to be considered effectively the same if basic geographical or contemporary terminology tied them together AT ALL. What a drop dead - and condescending - history class you'd teach.
     
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  5. Boris Gudenuf

    Boris Gudenuf Deity

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    Romans were not particularly blond. They may have appeared so, at least the Senatorial and Equestrian Classes (the rich) because there was quite a fad in the Empire for Blond Wigs for women, and a lot of German girls made a good dowry by growing their hair out and selling it to make such wigs. Human Hair was one of the 'Trade Goods' from the Barbarian Germans to Rome from about 0 to 300 CE.

    There is already a Mod of Charlemagne as Alternate Leader for France or Germany with the Paladin as his UU. It's not bad.

    We could start several Threads on Bad History Teaching. It's one of the main reasons I originally wanted to be a history teacher until I found out the market (in 1970, anyway) was completely flooded.
    My 'favorite' Bad History Teacher was at University, a Chinese professor teaching Oriental History. Teacher in question was one of the refugees that fled to Formosa on the Communist take-over in 1949, and their take on Oriental History was that everything Great and Wonderful was always Chinese, all other Oriental Cultures were inferior copies of the Chinese, except for the Japanese, who had no culture and were barely human.
    Having lived in Japan, that was, to say the least, a unique view of history to me . . .
     
    Last edited: Sep 15, 2019
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  6. Zaarin

    Zaarin My Dearest Doctor

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    Once when I lived in South Korea we got in a taxi, and the taxi driver greeted us with, "Korea is number one; America is number two." :lol: In my experience all three of China, Korea, and Japan claim to have invented everything first and best. :p (I recently read a rant by an Iranian claiming Iran invented everything, including the alphabet. That made me laugh since the last time any variety of Persian except maybe Tajik was spelled in a script that even vaguely suited it was never, with the highlight being the Sassanid period when they used Aramaic as a logographic script. :lol: )
     
  7. Boris Gudenuf

    Boris Gudenuf Deity

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    You could almost state as Historical Truthiness that Everybody's view of their own history is through Rose-Colored Glasses - which are opaque.
     
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  8. Alexander's Hetaroi

    Alexander's Hetaroi Deity

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    Considering present day-Mexico had the most number of advanced civilizations in the Americas: Aztecs, Maya, Olmec, Zapotec, Mixtec etc. it would be a shame to lump all of them together for Mexico. Usually it's a major indigenous culture> colonial nation or both if it's possible. We got the Cree then Canada this time, so maybe in Civ VII both Aztecs and Mexico will appear.

    1. Yes it does. Once Western Rome fell Italy developed a different culture throughout the medieval into the Renaissance and that would make it distinct enough. With the way leaders work in this game the capital doesn't have to be Rome, but could be Florence, Milan, Venice, Genoa etc. depending on the leader.
    2. Are you trying to say that a Venetian leader can be another Greek alternate leader like Pericles and Gorgo? Because it's literally in Italy and would make more sense as a Roman alt leader, but that's ridiculous in itself as well and would be better under it's own Civ or preferably under an Italian Civ like I mentioned above.
     
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  9. kryat

    kryat Prince

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    Can we include Byzantium on this list?
     
  10. Krajzen

    Krajzen Deity

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    Byzantium will be back in series anyway, it's one of staple civs. The purposes of this thread is to measure popularity of entirely fresh ideas.

    I just wanted to apologize for my culturally insensitive ignorance.
     
  11. Lonecat Nekophrodite

    Lonecat Nekophrodite Prince

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    In that mod. Paladin goes with Charlemagne regardless of which country he's leading. right? What did Paladins do? What made them superior to knights or any other medieval units?
    Do they have 'RPG Ability' to heal nearby units too?


    Actually someone is displeased with my opinions towards Romans, Byzantines and Italians. OK he may be right about Italians AREN'T Romans as 14 or so centuries apart and thus should be different civs. But I have a different idea that, based on that Turks and Arabians NEVER EVER referred to Byzantines as such, instead they still called them Romans. I'd like to see if Theodora 'Teddie' is religious leader of BOTH Romans and Greeks.

    That Chinese 'history teacher' in question did lived through war, and yes China monopolized the East as Big Brother for millenia and thus the Chinese can be displeased with the rise of Japan.
     
  12. Lonecat Nekophrodite

    Lonecat Nekophrodite Prince

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    Did Firaxis announce the third expansion yet?
     
  13. Lonecat Nekophrodite

    Lonecat Nekophrodite Prince

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    If you say that Italians are Romans are different civilizations, and they don't neccessary seated in Roma. Then 'Italians' can have many alternate leaders? Like Victor Emmanuel III's 'Italy' is seated in Savoy (What's the name of pre-unification capitol of his kingdom?). That Medici guy runs Florence? and what else?
    And under this setting, what should be Italian UU? Berasegali? Carabinieri? Condottieri? or else?
    And other Unique infrastructures that Italians should have? Trance Italienne? (available with gunpowder instead of siege tactics, replaces Renaissance Walls)


    I'm not saying that. I only saying that Firaxis representations of Venice in Civ5 is not so historically accurate as, if you play Civ5: BNW before, Venice can only control ONE CITY and may not recruit settlers once they've built their cities, They can capture cities and may buy CS too but the city they 'claimed' are not controllable (Civ5 'city capture' rules, if you remember, requires player to make a puppet before a full annexation can be made. under puppet government, a city still retains their choice of training or construction projects. Venice claimed cities other than capitol can only be puppets. How can Venice got a hold on Greek cities for some centuries under that option? And of course they are neither Romans nor Greeks at all (though initial members were Romans, but they didn't affilate themselves with Rome), they're Venetians.
     
  14. Alexander's Hetaroi

    Alexander's Hetaroi Deity

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    I personally would like to focus on aspects of Medieval/Renaissance Italy and nothing near the 19th and 20th century. My favorite choice would be a Medici leader for Florence. You can always have a doge come back and lead Venice or a Sforza for Milan as well.
    For UUs a Condotierri would do just fine and maybe make it unique to where you can only purchase with gold since they were mercenaries. Genoese Crossbowmen could work for a Genoan leader UU.
    As for Unique infrastructure there are a few options. My personal favorite would be a Bottega (Italian for Master's Workshop/Studio). It would be a workshop replacement that grants writer, artist, musican, and scientist points and produce culture as well as the other workshop benefits.
    Alternatively an Opera House could work since Italy is the home of Opera, but I'd rather that be a universal building. A Galleria, art museum replacement, could work but I don't know of any other neat bonuses other than automatically themed when completed/ art grants gold as well.

    I agree with you there. That's why I'm not really for another playable city-state.
     
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  15. Zaarin

    Zaarin My Dearest Doctor

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    Yes, Byzantium called itself Rome. So did Medieval Germany. So did the Sultanate of Rum. So did Imperial Russia. It's also true that the term Byzantium was never used in the Middle Ages; it was coined by historians for the Eastern Roman Empire because it clearly became a distinct entity in the Middle Ages. You realize Ancient Greece had been gone for 1,500 years by the time Constantinople fell to the Ottomans, and the Western Roman Empire had been fallen for ~800 years (by the traditional date).
     
  16. Boris Gudenuf

    Boris Gudenuf Deity

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    And Roman administrative titles and forms were used by the Goths, Vandals, Franks, Byzantine Greeks, and almost everyone else who had contact with Rome for hundreds of years after 500 CE, even after the actual administration and running of their little 'Empires' owed nothing to the Roman originals. Rome's influence extended long after Rome's "fall".

    And the city of Byzantium, or (Greek) Byzantion stretched almost as far into the past as it did into the future. According to (admittedly, not confirmed) legend, it was founded around 660 BCE, so by the time it became capital of anything resembling a 'Byzantine' state it had already been a Greek City State or Greek City State conquered by Persians, Macedonians, Romans, or Mithradates of Pontia (the problem of sitting on a Prime Location - just ask any City State in Civ VI!) for a thousand years - longer than it lasted as the center of 'Byzantium'!
     
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  17. Haig

    Haig Deity

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    I think Finland would make more sense as a city-state than a full civ.

    Finland(or more precisely the area that much later would be called Finland) was home to tribes with no political connection together, and the whole area was Sweden for 700 years followed by 100 years as a duchy of Russian Empire.

    Of course there is interesting possibilities for unique abilities like the shamans of ancient times or the skitroopers of WW2.

    In civ terms a city-state would be cool as Finland was fought over by Swedes and Russians first, and in cold war being competed by Western powers vs the Soviet Union. The strategic location still interests the great powers, joining NATO or not is still one of the big political issues.
     
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  18. PhoenicianGold

    PhoenicianGold King

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    I completely agree with this. And I say this with love because Finland would be flavorfully extremely fun. But per my earlier observation that the roster still has tried very hard to limit itself to "empires" while making smaller kingdoms and duchies that were vassal states for long periods of time city-states, Finland quite clearly falls into the latter category and I just don't see the devs doing it unless they decided to shoot for the moon after expack 3 and churn out another dozen or two civs while abandoning the presumption that civs have to be "expansionist."

    Part of me wants to advocate for low-effort "clone" or "hybrid clone" civs to become a thing so that a lot of requested civs like Finland could be made as cheap DLC, just a lot of reused assets. However, not only does that seem unrealistic given that we would still need four newly-composed tracks and an animated leader for each civ regardless of what assets were reused, and even still I don't think in many cases like Finland reused assets would capture the flavor quite right. Ho hum.

    Really, I would just be happy to see these C-tier requests (which again, I say with love) receive more personality as city-states. I don't think we would mind quite as much that "Finland" isn't playable, if we got "Helsinki," led by a static image leader, with a single unique (could be a unit, or a building, depending on the city-state--we already have this with things like Granada and Armagh and La Venta and Rapa Nui), and then a single ambience track to be added to the shuffle. I think that would satisfy many of us just to see our favorites in person on the map...and for those that aren't satisfied, it would make it even easier for modders to pump them up into a proper civ. In fact, I think this is still something the devs could do for smaller DLC and I would pay full price for this sort of city-state overhaul and be completely happy with the roster proper being finalized at 50.
     
  19. Alexander's Hetaroi

    Alexander's Hetaroi Deity

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    I mean Helsinki or Turku would be a good replacement for Bologna. :mischief:
     
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  20. Patine

    Patine Deity

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    And don't forget the Roman Catholic Church using terms such as "Pontifex" (from Sovereign Pontifex - the full Papal title AS POPE - not including subsidiary titles), Prelate, Justiciar, Magistrate, Collegium, Secretariate, etc. and having ecclesiastical Provincia - all Roman administrative terms, as their bases - all over the world!
     
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