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Poll: Which Wonder Should Become Obsolete?

Discussion in 'Civ2 - Game of Democracy II' started by naervod, Feb 5, 2003.

?

What should be negated?

  1. Colussus (cancelled by Flight)

    2 vote(s)
    15.4%
  2. Leonardo's Workshop (cancelled by Automobile)

    11 vote(s)
    84.6%
  3. Both

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  4. None

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  1. naervod

    naervod My current user title

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    Last turn, we were offered the technologies of Amphibious Warfare, Automobile, and Flight. The latter of the two techs will cancel out two of our wonders. Automobile will cancel out the effects of Leonardo's Workshop, and Flight will cancel out the effects of the Colosuss. What should we get have cancel out, one, both, or none? I recommend waiting to get Automobile as the Colossus is virtually replaced by SETI, but Leo's is irrecplacable and many of our units still get free upgrades.
     
  2. Duke of Marlbrough

    Duke of Marlbrough The Quiet Moderator Retired Moderator

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    Colossus isn't really replaced by SETI.

    SETI only boosts science, where Colossus adds trade arrows to the city. Those trade arrows are then used when computing the tax, luxuries, and science the city generates.

    Trade arrows are also used when computing the delivery payment for our freight, as well as the per turn bonus that is given to the city for each active trade route.

    Leo's will not be upgrading our troops, but the ones of those that we get when buying other Civs cities. Is that benefit outweighted by the extra trade, tax, and science we will get from colossus?

    Normally, what I do, is disband any ancient troops from a newly purchased city in order to use them to get shields into the production box. Then, I would PRB a needed city improvement. If so desired, they could be used to IPRB a new military unit in the city. Since units are only upgraded one 'level' each time a tech is discovered, it can take 2 techs before an archer is made into a rifleman. That could be about 6 turns. So, we would have to either keep the archer pushing forward with our 'normal' troops waiting for it to upgrade and be useful, or leave it behind, wait for it to upgrade, then try and have it catch up to the nomal troops.

    I think the economic benefits of the colossus outweighs the benefits of outdated units being upgraded. Plus, Automobile will give us superhighways that will increase our delivery payouts even more. In addition to that, we can get to even better ground units after getting automobile.

    The flip side to that is that air units can attack without fear of being counterattacked since the AI does not have any air techs (and hopefully will never get them).
     
  3. Octavian X

    Octavian X is not a pipe.

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    Watch it, naervod, I'm still here... :D

    My insticts tell me on the grand scheme of things, Leonardo's is more important. The Colossus provides us with 25 extra arrows only in Elysium, while Leo's upgrades all units free all over the world.

    I won't vote yet, since someone always corrects me. :D
     
  4. Mad Maestro

    Mad Maestro Chieftain

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    I voted Automobile. Looks as though our frontline military around india is sufficient and not in dire need of upgrades. Milk every bit of extra trade out of the colossus for science, and start to consider superhighways, especially in Elysium pretty soon.
     
  5. naervod

    naervod My current user title

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    Good points guys, I like to see lots of debate on this issue.

    Also, Octavian, I posted the poll because I was asked to in the thread while I was still Science Advisor, so I decided to carry out the request. You've got it from here ;)
     
  6. Zwelgje

    Zwelgje Deity

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    One thing we need badly: howitzers!!!
    Howitzers ignore city walls and have nice firepower. A necessity to take out enemy capitals with muskets fortified behind citywalls...
    I'll check tonight what I need to vote to get them! ;)
     
  7. Jayne

    Jayne Emperor

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    Granted, Leo's is very useful for upgrading all the out of date units we keep inheriting, but automobile gives us better scope for the future.

    Another question though? Do we keep researching techs we don't really need (such as Fundy) to delay researching Automobile or Flight?
     
  8. funxus

    funxus Orange Cycloptic Blob

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    No, skip those techs we don't need. The wonders will be obsolete sooner or later, so I think we might as well invent what we need. I think automobile is the better tech in this case, and will vote for it when I get home:)
     
  9. TimTheEnchanter

    TimTheEnchanter I...am...an Enchanter!

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    From what I can tell, Leo's has done it's job. I agree with what Duke said, that you're only dealing with units bribed or taken when bribing cities anyway. Disband them toward useful stuff so they are still of value. Upgrades to these units are not worth holding up progress along this research line.

    Get Superhighways in the big trade cities, because they're worth it, and get to Mobile Warfare. I don't think we should worry too much about whether bribed archers become riflemen when tanks could be rolling off the assembly lines.

    Definitely don't research something you won't use. Every loser tech makes the good ones take longer to learn. Don't learn fundy unless you expect to switch governments for the final conquest phase (which seems unnecessary).
     
  10. Leowind

    Leowind Emperor

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    DoM and others make good arguments about losing Leos first. My question is: are we at the end of techs that will upgrade our units? IIRC Tactics is the last military tech you can research and benefit from Leos before you have to go through automobile anyway. If we are only talking about units captured via "purchasing" another city, then Leo's benefits are drastically reduced. This is my leaning, but I will wait a day or two before voting.
     
  11. Duke of Marlbrough

    Duke of Marlbrough The Quiet Moderator Retired Moderator

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    All of our units have already been upgraded. So, Leo's would only be for units we get from buying AI cities.

    Calvary, Riflemen, and Artillery is the end of the line for upgrades.

    I mentioned it in another thread, but I'll mention it here as well. IIRC, when we discover flight, our freight delivery payments are reduced by another 1/3rd.
     
  12. Talar

    Talar Warlord

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    I have to agree with DoM, Leaonardo's won't do us much more good. And even if it did upgrade a few more units it's not like we desperatly need it, I don't think the AI:s are going to conquer us anytime soon ;)
     
  13. Zwelgje

    Zwelgje Deity

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    I want tanks soon, so now you can guess what my vote is... ;)
     
  14. Leowind

    Leowind Emperor

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    Shall we start the National Save the Collossus Foundation? I say hold off on Flight as long as possible, but don't take useless techs just to hold it off either :)
     
  15. Mr Spice

    Mr Spice Emperor

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    IMO Leonardo's should go first. And flight is not that an important tech anyway if you don't plan to build a space ship and don't have to defend against enemy bombers. Better imperial ground troops is more useful... :)

    And I agree with Leowind about giving flight a low priority for the tech que.
     

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