[GS] Poll: Will England be nerfed again?

[acluewithout]

I just posted on the general thread about this.

I don’t think the ME thing will be a big deal. Canals etc look fun, but I’m not convinced they will be actually that useful if you’re playing efficiently. So, I don’t think MEs will be useful. And Railways look like a lot of micro. Don’t get me wrong, I think MEs will be fun. Just not particularly powerful.

And making Knights need horses need iron means England’s +1 iron will be a lot less powerful.

But. The buffs to sea routes could be interesting, and might synergise well with England’s +1 Trade Route and RNDs. Guess we’ll wait and see.

 

[Sostratus]

And making Knights need horses need iron means England’s +1 iron will be a lot less powerful.

there was that Equestrian orders military card shown in the livestream that gave +1 to horse and iron sources. So they actually give you a card to boost knight production. I have to imagine there are more like it. Which is really exciting - on the upside, england can always sell her iron surplus for some horses. I'm wondering if they are going to make more industrial+ units require iron (in place of steel.) Ironclads and battleships especially. If they are dual coal/iron users then england will get a huge naval advantage.

 

[acluewithout]

there was that Equestrian orders military card shown in the livestream that gave +1 to horse and iron sources. So they actually give you a card to boost knight production. I have to imagine there are more like it. Which is really exciting - on the upside, england can always sell her iron surplus for some horses. I'm wondering if they are going to make more industrial+ units require iron (in place of steel.) Ironclads and battleships especially. If they are dual coal/iron users then england will get a huge naval advantage.

Yeah, I should have said my comments were subject to a big Caveat - let’s see how the whole system hangs together. When I was griping about moving trade routes in RnF, what I hadn’t realised was how much trade routes had been buffed - not just alliances but also policy cards.

I think you might be right about industrial era units needing iron, or at least some other units needing it (surely it’s not just Swordsmen). Military slots might also be more important if they’re tied to resources more.

Frankly, there is A LOT going on with this expansion, including A LOT of rebalancing- I’m equal parts excited and dreading it!

 

[Sostratus]

I think you might be right about industrial era units needing iron, or at least some other units needing it

It would seem to be very strange to include iron in an industrial themed ability if it was an early game resource. If it were in the current unit model, i would have expected just coal (for ships and coal power plants.) Iron is obviously a callout to steelmaking, but that isn't really represented as a game feature... yet

Combined with the chopping vibes - paraphrasing what Saruman the White says in the Two Towers: "The old world will burn in the fires of british industry."

 

[kryat]

When I was griping about moving trade routes in RnF, what I hadn’t realised was how much trade routes had been buffed - not just alliances but also policy cards.

I hadn’t really thought of it before, but if England had been allowed to keep double trade routes post R+F, they could be hilariously OP. Wisselbanken and AoD already lead to some insane yields in a city. I’m sure you could get to 200+ production per turn in a single city in most games.

 

[acluewithout]

I hadn’t really thought of it before, but if England had been allowed to keep double trade routes post R+F, they could be hilariously OP. Wisselbanken and AoD already lead to some insane yields in a city. I’m sure you could get to 200+ production per turn in a single city in most games.

Agreed, although it took me a little while in early 2018 to see that. I think the current compromise will work really well - you get more routes, it’s not that hard to get them overall (just found a city on another continent - ie don’t need to build anything else), but won’t get out of hand.

I think the one Melee unit you also get might be a little sad. But, if resources are actually fairly restricted, a single Melee unit regardless of resources might actually be quite valuable.

 

[spfun]

They lost the one thing that would make me play them(6 slot museums) So yeah.

 

[Naeshar]

I voted for (again) weak England. The new Pax looks great and is very thematic, but I would say all civs will get a similar overhaul. It's hard to evaluate and I stay negative

 

[Sostratus]

They lost the one thing that would make me play them(6 slot museums) So yeah

There were some issues with that, particularly how you could capture a British museum and it would still have 6 slots. I can imagine they may have wanted to move away from it for technical reasons.
My main hope is that WotW, even if it isn't particularly powerful on the scale of the strong civs out there, is at least fun to play with. I can imagine hopefully having an "industrial explosion" where hitting that era means you suddenly can harness your abilities; using extra coal and iron to lay down fleets and put up power plants, placing tons of dams, canals, railroads with super cheap Military engineers, etc. Really being the first to industrialize in that sense. And then later, after all the building, you get some extra boosts from powered buildings, which is nice.

 

[acluewithout]

Let’s see.

England. WotW gives England extra iron and coal, and cheap military engineers. England also gets extra trade routes from Pax B and from having cheap Harbours. And Harbours give you extra production, because extra adjacency and also cheap.

MEs build railroads. Railways don’t use builder charges, although use iron and coal. England gets cheap MEs and extra iron and coal. So, lots of railways.

Railroads boost trade route yields. Also, sea trade boosts trade yields. England has lots of railways and sea trade routes. England has extra trade routes. So, England has lots of trade routes that are very profitable.

Also, Harbours now benefit more from Mercantile CSs, and Commercial Hubs benefit less. England gets cheap Harbours, so even more gold. Also, England has even more reason to build more CC, Harbour, Commercial Hub triangles, because Mercantile CS bonus split between Harbour and CH.

IZ Coal Plant boosts yields, including IZ hammer yields. IZ maybe now look good, if you can power them. England gets extra coal to power its power plants, so more likely to get additional yields. Also, England gets additional yields from power. Also, England gets extra production from Harbours (Shipyards). Also, England has more reason to build CC, Harbour, CH triangles, which also improve Harbour adjacency, which also give more hammers.

England causes lots of pollution from all its coal plants and railroads which floods its and everyone else’s coastal cities. But England has cheap MEs with extra charges, which it built to build railways, and which are still around because railways don’t cost build charges, so England builds lots of flood defence. So, everyone else’s coastal cities get flooded, not England.

Yeah. I think England are going to be “okay” in GS...

TL;DR England gets all the railways, all the power plants, all the gold, and all the hammers; and then everyone’s coastal cities (not England’s) get flooded.

 

[Sostratus]

I think this

WotW gives England extra iron and coal,

and this

Also, England gets additional yields from power.

Will be the true shining beacon of this civ rework. You can rush power faster, but either way you get those extra yields. That's +2 production, science, culture, probably gold/maybe amenity per city plus you've got 4 extra power budget per coal deposit to work with.
When i think about power form the Canada stream, I think about how much coal I realistically have in my nation. 1-2 deposits. That means I can only get a handful of powered buildings up if I need to keep a small trickle coming in for railroads.

Railroads seem a tiny bit eh to me from the standpoint that it doesn't look like non-gold yields are being boosted by the new trade efficiency mechanic, which would otherwise make certain aspects of england supremely good. Getting extremely cheap dams, canals, etc is also a great little trick. MEs are dirt cheap and don't scale in cost.

 

[acluewithout]

Not sure how big a deal power will be - possibly not that big at all - but should be fun. I’ll be interested to see whether power is also buffed by policy cards.

Overall my guess is IZs and IZ buildings will still need buffs, but that might get done through mods or patches.

I don’t think Railways will be a major thing, which is fine by me. The fact that they don’t require ME charges means they’ll be fun not burdensome. You just build one ME and then off you go.

 

[Sostratus]

Overall my guess is IZs and IZ buildings will still need buffs,

Given that they are taking away production from the IZ buildings, but don't appear to be touching costs, yes, yes it seems they will need buffs.
My hope is that the greatly reduced long term forest chop benefit (=faster warming and more drought) and longer game time will mean that people actually invest more in their primary economy (food, production, gold) instead of the secondary one (science, culture, faith) because, honestly, if you actually develop a set of cities, you can play the game quite well with pretty low production times. If, however, you chop campus til u mars, you end up with a bit of a hollow empire that definitely can't produce jack. It is not very hard to get a core of several 100 production/turn cities. Currently it's enough to skate to t200 and win. If most games get pushed to t300 then that strategy may not work so well.

 

[Trav'ling Canuck]

Not sure how big a deal power will be - possibly not that big at all - but should be fun. I’ll be interested to see whether power is also buffed by policy cards.

Overall my guess is IZs and IZ buildings will still need buffs, but that might get done through mods or patches.

I don’t think Railways will be a major thing, which is fine by me. The fact that they don’t require ME charges means they’ll be fun not burdensome. You just build one ME and then off you go.

The power system itself has the potential to be a good addition, although I'd rather electricity not radiate out in a perfect circle from every power plant. If a power plant can power four cities, it should be able to power them regardless of whether they're in a circle or a straight line (maybe you need a boosting station in city three if you want to get super fussy).

Regardless of what the dev team does with it, including electricity functionality will allow the game to be modded to taste in terms of boosting Tier 3 buildings and specialists. What we've seen so far doesn't look like a boost. If anything, based on what we've seen to date, Tier 3 buildings are even less worth the investment in GS given the investment in IZs/Power Plants and depletion of resources involved in raising their yields above R&F levels. That may change in playtesting.

 

[Sostratus]

What we've seen so far doesn't look like a boost. If anything, based on what we've seen to date, Tier 3 buildings are even less worth the investment in GS given the investment in IZs/Power Plants and depletion of resources involved in raising their yields above R&F levels.

On the one hand, full IZ coverage will be important because a power plant can give you like, a dozen yield between all the boosts. On the other hand, there is no way I'd build a research lab just to get +2 science (if i didn't have enough coal or whatever- a good reason to play england.)
If you already had the power capacity then they roughly get a 50% boost in yield which isn't bad at all, though (closer to +100% as england.) Except the IZ itself for some reason. They nerfed the factory. The hungarian zoo provides the same base bonus as a factory now.

Even with longer lasting game, the lack of new production being infused means it will still be more worthwhile to run eg science projects. It's basic annuity math. I had thought for sure things like railroads would offer new boosts to your productivity. Well, maybe that can be modded in too.

 

[Trav'ling Canuck]

The hungarian zoo provides the same base bonus as a factory now.

Don't forget Canadian outdoor hockey rinks.

It's basic annuity math.

The dev team is good at a lot of very important things, and have a lot of great game design ideas. They're not strong, however, on the concept of return on investment.

To be fair, it's hard for a lot of people, which is why good game systems make decisions roughly equal from an ROI perspective, so that the player can focus on the more enjoyable decision of figuring out which of the various alternatives makes the most sense in their current situation.

 

[Pietato]

I hope they nerf England again. Always fun seeing @Victoria 's reaction.

Moderator Action: Please do not troll other members. leif

 

[acluewithout]

The power system itself has the potential to be a good addition, although I'd rather electricity not radiate out in a perfect circle from every power plant. If a power plant can power four cities, it should be able to power them regardless of whether they're in a circle or a straight line (maybe you need a boosting station in city three if you want to get super fussy).

Regardless of what the dev team does with it, including electricity functionality will allow the game to be modded to taste in terms of boosting Tier 3 buildings and specialists. What we've seen so far doesn't look like a boost. If anything, based on what we've seen to date, Tier 3 buildings are even less worth the investment in GS given the investment in IZs/Power Plants and depletion of resources involved in raising their yields above R&F levels. That may change in playtesting.

On the one hand, full IZ coverage will be important because a power plant can give you like, a dozen yield between all the boosts. On the other hand, there is no way I'd build a research lab just to get +2 science (if i didn't have enough coal or whatever- a good reason to play england.)
If you already had the power capacity then they roughly get a 50% boost in yield which isn't bad at all, though (closer to +100% as england.) Except the IZ itself for some reason. They nerfed the factory. The hungarian zoo provides the same base bonus as a factory now.

Even with longer lasting game, the lack of new production being infused means it will still be more worthwhile to run eg science projects. It's basic annuity math. I had thought for sure things like railroads would offer new boosts to your productivity. Well, maybe that can be modded in too.

Don't forget Canadian outdoor hockey rinks.




The dev team is good at a lot of very important things, and have a lot of great game design ideas. They're not strong, however, on the concept of return on investment.

To be fair, it's hard for a lot of people, which is why good game systems make decisions roughly equal from an ROI perspective, so that the player can focus on the more enjoyable decision of figuring out which of the various alternatives makes the most sense in their current situation.

Agree with most if not all of this.

The main point is that, even if FXS don’t quite nail the balance, the broader changes they’ve made and new mechanics (eg power) should let us mod things to get the right balance.

The only big issue I think is around Heavy Cav (which is why I’ve been posting about it). If they don’t require two resources under the current mechanics, I don’t that requirement can be modded in.

 

[Steamboat Willem]

On the one hand, full IZ coverage will be important because a power plant can give you like, a dozen yield between all the boosts. On the other hand, there is no way I'd build a research lab just to get +2 science (if i didn't have enough coal or whatever- a good reason to play england.)
If you already had the power capacity then they roughly get a 50% boost in yield which isn't bad at all, though (closer to +100% as england.) Except the IZ itself for some reason. They nerfed the factory. The hungarian zoo provides the same base bonus as a factory now.

Even with longer lasting game, the lack of new production being infused means it will still be more worthwhile to run eg science projects. It's basic annuity math. I had thought for sure things like railroads would offer new boosts to your productivity. Well, maybe that can be modded in too.

One of the things that bugs me about Civ6 is that production should skyrocket in the Industrial Era, but it doesn't. Previous versions there was this period in the game where you could really have an "Industrial Revolution", building factories, laying railroads, and then you could afford to build the new units and buildings.

 

[Mr Jon of Cheam]

One of the things that bugs me about Civ6 is that production should skyrocket in the Industrial Era, but it doesn't. Previous versions there was this period in the game where you could really have an "Industrial Revolution", building factories, laying railroads, and then you could afford to build the new units and buildings.

I hadn't really thought of that before but it would be a great way to add significance to the middle game: once you reach the industrial era, new buildings, units, and districts cost a lot more but offer a lot more in return, e.g. factories boost production considerably, Research Labs add a 100% modifier to science output, etc. That way you would have to industrialise by building IZs and factories or you would fall behind everyone else. And then the late game would be about converting to cleaner energy and repairing some of the damage to avoid total collapse.