1. We have added a Gift Upgrades feature that allows you to gift an account upgrade to another member, just in time for the holiday season. You can see the gift option when going to the Account Upgrades screen, or on any user profile screen.
    Dismiss Notice

Polls

Discussion in 'Team Kazakhstan' started by Sommerswerd, Mar 8, 2009.

  1. Sommerswerd

    Sommerswerd I never yielded

    Joined:
    Oct 10, 2007
    Messages:
    17,397
    Location:
    Wakanda Forever
    We need to have a clear policy on what issues we will actually poll, and who is authorized to post / approve the posting of a poll. We have not polled anything in about a month... and while I love Consensus as everyone knows... :) I also love Democracy. I would like to get more folks involved. That means more polling IMO:D
     
  2. Provolution

    Provolution Sage of Quatronia

    Joined:
    Jul 21, 2004
    Messages:
    10,102
    Location:
    London
    I think I would like to nominate Sommers here for this job, as Sommers has had a strong focus on due process in previous situations, and I gather the person learned a lot in the dilemmas we had.
    As there has been no poll since turn 30 or so, I think it is high time to institute a polling system with some groundrules, or participation will suffer, as people may think their input is not taken seriously, even with a decent support base. We want the team to work out strategy as far as possible without polls, but use polls to arbitrate between dissenting views on multiple option issues.

    So, I nominate Sommers as the Steward of Protocol (Interior minister is a bit non historical here), and hope we get backing for that.
     
  3. Sommerswerd

    Sommerswerd I never yielded

    Joined:
    Oct 10, 2007
    Messages:
    17,397
    Location:
    Wakanda Forever
    Assuming that Provo means for me to take on the role of the "Internal Affairs Minister"... I accept.

    As I originally nominated Smoke to have this role, I would like to invite Smoky to voice any objection to this... but since I (and others) have made several attempts to get a clear ruling on whether to conduct a poll, and received no response... I am assuming that Smoke is not really interested in being bothered with the job. I will take the responsibility for deciding when polls are appropriate.

    Again, I invite any dissenters to speak up on this thread. I will assume that the usual "silence means consent" rule applies...:)

    I notice that several team mates have already viewed this post. :goodjob:
     
  4. Sommerswerd

    Sommerswerd I never yielded

    Joined:
    Oct 10, 2007
    Messages:
    17,397
    Location:
    Wakanda Forever
    Hold your vote for now. We can vote in the actual poll. First things first. You need at least one other person to request a poll on this issue or else it is just one person spamming polls as you put it.:) Is there anyone else you know of who wants to poll this?
     
  5. Provolution

    Provolution Sage of Quatronia

    Joined:
    Jul 21, 2004
    Messages:
    10,102
    Location:
    London
    We will see, if people would like more order and predictability to decisionmaking.
     
  6. Sommerswerd

    Sommerswerd I never yielded

    Joined:
    Oct 10, 2007
    Messages:
    17,397
    Location:
    Wakanda Forever
    :king: has proposed a new rule that ALL suggestions (at least regarding city placement) should be supported by testing (conducted via the test save). As we all know, :king: generously maintains a test version in the "Sim Games" sticky thread.

    IMO we should have a team vote before we adopt such a rule. If two additional team members agree that this issue should have a poll then you can say so here, and I will post a poll.

    The language of the Poll would be:

    I would say that if we don't vote on this then it probably should not become team policy. Folks should also voice any disagreement on this thread to keep the City 5 thread focused on the location of City 5.
     
  7. Sommerswerd

    Sommerswerd I never yielded

    Joined:
    Oct 10, 2007
    Messages:
    17,397
    Location:
    Wakanda Forever
    Does this post mean that :king: and Smoke want to poll the issue, or no?

    As you saw in the 5th city thread, I took the time to play 20 turns ahead.

    BTW I do use the tests saves and I really do appreciate :king: taking the time to make them. I just don't think the test Sim should be used as a hammer to beat down dissenting voices.
     
  8. Kaleb

    Kaleb Deity

    Joined:
    Jan 14, 2004
    Messages:
    2,451
    Location:
    London
    First off, I'm fine for you, Sommers, to be in charge of running polls.

    As for the rest, hmm, where do I start...

    First of all, I am not saying that people are only allowed to suggest things if they support it with a test sim! Not everyone even has BTS for a start.

    Hey come on. You know I am not saying an issue is "key" only when people disagree with me, be fair. We've run tests for every city we've built so far, and even for lesser matters, I don't see why deciding the location of this city should be any different

    And I think that if we are going to try and win this game we should plan what we want to do in detail. We will vote, but surely people will prefer to vote on facts rather than speculation? Or at least as close to facts as we can get. We can present views and opinions and people will make their decisions based on that.

    You're kind of arguing against a proposal I haven't made here... I'm am not in any way suggesting that we decide things by anything other than team consensus (illustrated through discussion or polling whatever is appropriate). I am saying that we should try and test various options through test games because that is best practice and just generally a smart, sensible thing to do.

    This is not what I am suggesting at all, and you know it. You should try taking some of your own advice:

    Final point:
    When the RNG comes into play you need to be careful with trusting a sim game. We all know that, nothing new there, it's nothing about being 'faulty' as you put it. When I repeatedly got Confu founded in Oskemen I raised it to the team to ask what people thought about it. Then we discussed the formula and we realised the results were being repeated because the RNG was not refreshing without a Civ restart.
     
  9. damnrunner

    damnrunner Emperor

    Joined:
    Oct 19, 2005
    Messages:
    1,986
    If we do a poll each side should have the chance to present their case. Test results can be used to bolster a case. But it is just support.

    I expect we will also have some polls for which game testing is pointless - naming a city, going to war, etc.
     
  10. Indiansmoke

    Indiansmoke Deity

    Joined:
    Dec 12, 2006
    Messages:
    4,124
    Location:
    Athens, Greece
    As I see it in our case regarding the 5th city the delema is.

    Do we get gold city first and iron city 5 turns later?

    Or iron city first and gold 5 turns later?

    It is more optimal to go gold city first...better faster development and tech...but it is more cautious to go iron first so we have metal 5 turns earlier.

    Cautious people should vote for iron...more adevnturous for gold...I am with the adventurous bunch, as if we are going to win thios game...too much caution will not do it.
     
  11. cav scout

    cav scout The Continuum

    Joined:
    Apr 4, 2008
    Messages:
    2,608
    I second Smoke's proposal for a city 5 poll. I support gold first also: we need to get our commerce city off the ground to keep the REX going. We have enough distance from the other opponents to wait 5 turns on the iron. Getting iron with city 6 still hooks up metal well before we face barb archers (or worse).
     
  12. Sommerswerd

    Sommerswerd I never yielded

    Joined:
    Oct 10, 2007
    Messages:
    17,397
    Location:
    Wakanda Forever
    These are good questions :king: but they pose seperate issues.

    FYI, This is the only poll I plan on posting WITHOUT a poll alert. This is because I felt comfortable that the "Polls" thread had been up long enough that everyone got a chance to hear about this poll and anyone who cared had a fair opportunity to comment. A poll alert for this poll would have been redoundant IMO. ;)

    Also, as I said, I think your questions represent seperate issues that would probably be better addressed in a seperate poll. For example... you might say, "I want a rule that says all the "options / choices" on a poll have 1 sponsor, 2 sponsors etc. Or you might say, "We should poll... 'How many opposition sponsors are required, once a poll has been requested and seconded?"

    In General, I feel pretty comfortable with browsing the forums and getting a feel for what choices poeple want on the poll. On another note...How are we doing on time for the Tech Poll?
     
  13. Sommerswerd

    Sommerswerd I never yielded

    Joined:
    Oct 10, 2007
    Messages:
    17,397
    Location:
    Wakanda Forever
    I noticed you posted twice in the 'rule poll' thread so I moved the discussion here...

    I dont think polls stop us from having intelligent debate, in fact the pressure of an upcoming poll makes people come up with really intelligent ideas, and very intelligent challenges to others' ideas.

    I DO think that polls are all about "majority rule" and so, they are the exact opposite of consensus building. Polls are about finding majority... Consensus is about total agreement with no one left out. With a consensus, there is no majority, everyone agrees.;)

    I agree, which is why I asked Provo to wait for someone to second his proposal before I would poll any of his proposed changes to polling rules. I also tried to seperate the first issue from the many other rule changes suggested to keep the poll as simple as possible. You have to kind of see the irony... that Cavscout seconded Provo's proposal and then is worried about us going to far... oh well:crazyeye:

    Well a poll is... strictly speaking, purely democratic... it is the purest expression of majority rule. However, you also said you wanted consensus building too, so I wanted to remind you that we can have consensus for a particular issue or we can have majority rule, but we cant have both at the same time. ;)

    One last point... Since we have started discussing polls and polling again I have noticed more interest and activity on the forums (see all the new names?)... We were going kind of flat for a while and participation was dwindiling. I obviously can not prove that the poll talk caused an upswing in participation, but I do think polls get folks interested. :goodjob:
     
  14. cav scout

    cav scout The Continuum

    Joined:
    Apr 4, 2008
    Messages:
    2,608
    Come on sommers, majority rule and consensus are not exclusive. Deliberative bodies approve certain measures all the time with unanimous consent (watch C-SPAN if you don't believe me).

    Consensus is always the prefered method for reaching decisions. If everyone seems to be for the Masonry-> Monotheism route do we really need to poll it? Spending time and energy on formalized voting when we don't need to is just pointless legalism. Just because we adopted confucianism in-game doesn't mean we need to here in the forum! :ack: When an issue becomes contentious and people want a vote they can call for one, no worries.

    Oh and I don't think new people are joining our forum to debate parliamentary procedure btw, I suspect they just want to take part in a good game of Civ. Nice try though ;)
     
  15. Sommerswerd

    Sommerswerd I never yielded

    Joined:
    Oct 10, 2007
    Messages:
    17,397
    Location:
    Wakanda Forever
    You think I don't watch C-SPAN? It's practically required reading! Anyway, I'll just rely on good ol' Webster to back me up on this:

    http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/consensus
    http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/unanimity
    http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/unanimous

    Consensus, as you can see... means Unanimity
    Unanimity, as you can see... is the state of being Unanimous
    Unanimous, as you can see... means having the agreement and consent of ALL.

    Consensus then, means that everyone who would vote, is going to vote yes. Solidarity of judgment arrived at by unanimous vote of most of those concerned. That is NOT majority rule. I will spare you the dictionary definition of "majority."

    Check... and Mate. I think we can put that issue to bed, dont you?;)

    Maybe, Maybe not;) In all serious-ness. If you don't think people want "parlimentary procedure", ease up on suggesting new rules about "what proposals should be seconded, before adoption" etc. Didn't you just suggest using "Roberts Rules of Order?!?" :dubious:. Maybe that was intended as a joke...;)

    The point is... different people enjoy different things about playing a democracy game. Some just like voting in polls, some like testing, some like arguing about parlimentary procedure. Seems like you and I like a little of all the above;)
     
  16. cav scout

    cav scout The Continuum

    Joined:
    Apr 4, 2008
    Messages:
    2,608
    Oh sommers you crafty fox. You know full well I wasn't saying that "consensus" and "majority" have the same dictionary meaning. I clearly said they aren't "mutually exclusive." That was a good college try though ;)

    My point is this. Let's not go overboard with procedure if we don't have to. I agree that playing "parliamentary procedure" just for the sake of being legalistic can be fun for some. But for most it's a total turn-off and we'd be walking down a primrose path if we start getting too legalistic in our forum. The reference to Roberts was tongue-in-cheek but if things ever get really confrontational (i hope not!) then it's a remedy.
     
  17. Sommerswerd

    Sommerswerd I never yielded

    Joined:
    Oct 10, 2007
    Messages:
    17,397
    Location:
    Wakanda Forever
    I do not feel comfortable with this philosophy... I think :king:'s comment sums it up best...:goodjob:

    We should not be making up rules that exclude people who do not read every single post, every single day... at least not without some open vote on it... at a minimum.

    There is an interesting paradox that keeps surfacing here. When it is poll time, we say "we dont need poll"... "the issue is already decided" and a poll is just "needless beauracracy." Then we start suggesting new rules (beauracracy) to structure the polls. Then I suggest that we vote on the suggested rule, and folks say, "no that is too much beauracracy.":crazyeye:

    I think that tech choice and city build sites are two issues that folks probably find the most fun to vote about and I think we should always poll them, even when we are fairly certain which side will win. And :king: I think the reason there has been less posting from the new members is because we dont poll those two issues.

    Some folks just might not be willing to read through all the threads to discover all the "semi-secret" polls that we engage in all the time. We all post in the threads to say "I vote we tech this!" or "I vote for this new rule." If we just make the vote public, and direct people to the appropriate thread to discuss the upcoming vote, folks might be inclined to read a thread in detail, to be able to make an informed vote on the poll. They might even start participating and helping, with intel, analysis, testing, research, diplo, etc.

    There may be team mates who have checked into the forums thought "OK there is going to be a poll for Aesthetics, Metal Casting, and Masonry-> Monotheism. I want Metal Casting. I'll check back in later to see if the poll is up. When they come back and see that there never was any poll they might be dissapointed, I know I would be.
    Some people might just want to vote in the polls and leave the rest to the regulars.

    At any rate, the time has arrived to put up the poll, so that :king: or Cavscout has some information to act on as far as moving the tech slider when our next turn comes. :king: posted on 3/11 that poll had to go up by 3/14 at absolute latest. We all have a good idea how this is going to come out, but we need to show the rest of the team that we are willing to poll tech and city foundings at least.

    I am posting the tech poll now. Of course if this terribly offends anyone the "Polling Rules" thread is still up. We can vote to conduct a series of polls to establish hard and fast polling rules.

    Speaking of which, :king: has proposed a rule that individual options on a poll should be suggested (I'm assuming you mean on the poll alert thread, is that right :king:?) by at least one person to be included on the poll. Do you mean to say that you want to vote on this rule or no? Is there anyone else that wants this rule?
     
  18. donsig

    donsig Low level intermediary

    Joined:
    Mar 6, 2001
    Messages:
    12,894
    Location:
    Rochester, NY
    And just what did the :king: say?
     
  19. Sommerswerd

    Sommerswerd I never yielded

    Joined:
    Oct 10, 2007
    Messages:
    17,397
    Location:
    Wakanda Forever
    There is no changing votes. My personal preference is irrelevant, all that matters is that we try to stay true to some Democratic process. So no Cavscout, it would ABSOLUTELY not be OK for you to change to Iron City. Sorry.:)

    Informal tallying of votes caters unfairly to those of us who read all the posts everyday... Everyone else gets left out in the cold.:(. Part of the reason you might prefer it is because it unfairly favors you... because you read all the posts and threads. Try to think about it objectively... am I right? I don't want to offend or sound accusatory, just telling the truth IMO:D

    The "no-switching" method reduces the chance that we will have confusing poll results, where a casual player will see one result when they check the poll, but then a different action when they check the log. Vote switching undermines poll results, and undermines closure. The poll should be the end of the debate, not the beginning.

    I think this method (no switching) also encourages people to read the threads and think carefully before voting... Consider that :king: has not voted yet, depite expressing favoring Gold first. I believe :king: is genuinley trying to carefully consider all the options. I don't know what :king: will ultimately choose, but I think it sets the proper example for all of us... Don't become "true believers" of a particular course of action, simply tailoring our "tests" and comments to suit our own pre-determined ideas about what is best.

    I have been "red-hands" guilty of doing this, and being stubborn, and I plan on trying to follow :king:'s example from now on... Regardless of what option :king: eventually picks, :king: has taken the lead in showing the correct way to cast a vote.
     
  20. WilliamOfOrange

    WilliamOfOrange King

    Joined:
    Jul 17, 2003
    Messages:
    998
    Location:
    Lincolnshire, UK
    I agree. I don't know how often I will be able to read things on here every day, so I agree with what is said above. I will try to be more informed before polling, which is tricky, because you often have second thoughts because that is what they are by definition.
     

Share This Page