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Polls

Discussion in 'Team Kazakhstan' started by Sommerswerd, Mar 8, 2009.

  1. donsig

    donsig Low level intermediary

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    Sommers you could have at least waited until we got civil service before you created a bureaucracy and then took control if it. I don't remember voting to make you Poll God. I must have missed that poll alert.

    The poll system is not working fine. It is too distracting and you even said yourself people are ignoring THE BIG BOLD HEADERS and posting where they want. Sure no poll has come out against majority opinion because you're polling things that don't need to be polled in the first place.

    We don't necessarily need a new thread with BIG BOLD HEADERS to tell us a poll is coming. You could create one thread for all poll alerts and announcements and even sticky it if you want. We can then subscribe to that thread and get email notifications every time Sommerswerd wants to have a poll. You do not need to litter the team forum with a thread for each announced poll.

    If you really want to contribute to the team and encourage participation then put your time and energy into summarizing where a discussion is at the time you think a poll alert is needed.
     
  2. Sommerswerd

    Sommerswerd I never yielded

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    By "educated citizens" I am assuming you mean the "best informed" ie. those who have all the information. Does that necessarily only include the most vocal team members? Is it possible that some team mates just want to "lurk" and read some of the posts and vote in the polls? What is wrong with that?

    Even among those of us who are "educated" there is still disagreement... So why is our "educated" opinion more valid than someone who just browses the forums a little before making a vote? Or someone who just votes based on their playing experience? If being "educated" makes you better able to reach some theoretical "correct" answer, then those of us who post all the time, the "educated" citizens, would always agree because with our superior knowledge, we would know the "correct" answer. But it does not work that way... Maybe we are not as "educated" as we think.

    Democracy that only includes the "educated citizens"...:( Hmmmmm... like the US used to be? I will leave it at that because I think its pretty obvious where that is headed...

    Who are these theoretical "uneducated voters" that you are so afraid of? Please name names (rather than concepts or characteristics) and say what polls they voted in (... Maybe that way, we can make the discussion a litte more practical and less metaphysical. Can you give an EXAMPLE of a poll where the RESULT of the poll was swayed against the will of a majority of "educated voters" by "uneducated" votes? If not, I would say that your worries about "uneducated" voters is just a straw issue, no?

    It really just seems like you want a system where Cav, Smoke, :king:, Don, Sommers and Provo make all the decisions and everyone else on the team are just observers... I will not accept such a system and I will resist any attempt to move us in that direction.

    If this (or something similar) is your response to my question about specific examples:
    I would respond that Don's idea is exactly wrong. Past performance is the best predictor of future performance. Our whole system of credit and insurance is based on this principle. When you go to a job interview, they always ask for work history for this very reason. It seems like Don is basically saying "I recognize that there is no reason to complain, but I'm complaining anyway because the TV says that just because someone always does something a certain way that doesent mean that they will probably continue to do it that way." :lol: I know that is a little overly dramatic / slap-stick but still you have to chuckle a little....;)

    What commercial says this BTW? I have never heard any commercial say this:confused:
     
  3. Sommerswerd

    Sommerswerd I never yielded

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    Poll God?:confused: I get it Don, you don't like polls... I'm sorry :(.

    When you say that "no poll has gone against majority because the polled issues should not have been polled"... Are you saying that the only time a issue should be polled is when we suspect that the majority of the team would vote against the majority of the folks who post the most?:confused:

    Who is distracted by the Polls? You? Distracted from doing what? You don't do any testing or post any screenshots... So what are you being distracted from? And anyway if you consider all this poll discussion such a bore and so distracting, then why keep posting about it:confused: Why not stop distracting yourself? I do not force you to keep suggesting new ways to structure the polls, nor do I force you to keep posting criticisms of polling in general...

    I for one am thouroughly enjoying the game and being a part of this team, not just because I am learning so much about civ and our actual game is fun, but also because I really really relish these kinds of discussions / debates. Frankly I could argue back and forth about this issue forever.... It's fun IMO, not a distraction at all... I eagerly await you response Don (and anyone else's for that matter).:)
     
  4. donsig

    donsig Low level intermediary

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    I don't like useless polls.

    No, I am saying you are polling things that we already know from discussion that we have a large majority supporting one of the options. In such cases you'll not get a poll result that differs from the majority opinion. That will only happen once we get to a decision where there is no clear cut obvious majority. That's when we will need to call on this polling system you're trying so hard to build. We DO NOT NEED A POLL FOR EVERY TECH AND EVERY CITY WE BUILD just for the sake of polling. The best thing you've done recently is tally up the current choices of team members for the next tech we're going to do (metal casting versus aesthetics). An, hey, now that I think about it, YOU DIDN'T USE A POLL to do it.

    Yes, if I haven't made it clear yet, I AM DISTRACTED BY YOUR POLLING NONSENSE. I am being distracted from participating in a team decision making. No, I've done no testing, posted no screenshots. I did not know there were any requirements along those lines to be considered a full member of this team. Silly me, I thought this poll business was all about increasing active participation on the team. Now I see it is about forcing team members to do testing and post screenshots.

    Is all this fun you're having really helping our team to win this game?
     
  5. Indiansmoke

    Indiansmoke Deity

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    By educated I mean all those who follow the situation and are aware of circumstances...I am not suggesting a caste system or anything like that.

    I am in favor of specific arguments relevant to our situation....that's all...not decisions made on general principles or general experience.
     
  6. Sommerswerd

    Sommerswerd I never yielded

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    As you said previously, we won't know that until the game is over;) But I do get that YOU believe it is not helping... Sorry:(

    As far as the screenshots go... I think EVERYONE knows that I am against any screenshot posting requirement. My position on that is very well documented on our team forum... I expect that you know this as well, so I'm not sure what all the talk about screenshot requirements is about...:confused: My point was (and I think you probably know this as well) is that to the extent that you are distracted by the Polling talk, it is because you allow yourself to be distracted...:p. It seems to me that you enjoy debating this subject;)

    I think we should all type EVERYTHING in size 7 font from now on BTW. It looks really loud and powerful:lol: OK, but seriously I will answer any more questions on this Don, but I will give you the last word... since we are not going to agree on this.:D
     
  7. donsig

    donsig Low level intermediary

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    Ok, here's my top ten list of questions about polling, Sommerswerd:

    1. Are you ever gonna address the points I've brought up about polling?
    2. Do you still insist we need a poll for every city we build?
    3. Do you know the difference between size 5 and size 7?
    4. Do you still insist we need to poll every 'next tech'?
    5. What do you think about the idea of having a poll to see if we need a poll?
    6. How did you get to be in charge of polls anyway?
    7. Do you know sarcasm when you see it?
    8. Do you mind if we discuss the actual poll subject in the poll announcement threads?
    9. What do you think about the idea of replacing individual poll announcement threads with one stickied poll announcement thread that we can subscribe to?
    10. How can you give me the last word if you keep replying to what I say?
     
  8. Sommerswerd

    Sommerswerd I never yielded

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    1. What points have I not addressed? Seriously:confused: I am very sorry for missing them.
    2. Yes
    3. Yes, I was making a joke... I hope it was funny;) I know your BOLD statements were size 5 font, geez...
    4. Yes
    5. That's OK IMO:) If you agree that I can always just vote "No" for Don everytime:) In all "serious-ness" the poll alert invites folks to say that they don't want a poll. If everyone seems to be against polling then I guess we probably should not poll. So far you seem to be the only one that is super offended by polling... To me, that is not enough to justify not polling.
    6. This is the best question IMO, because the answer is... by the same process that YOU ARE ADVOCATING over polling. A group of team members got together and decided it... There was no dissent at the time the decision was made... It is particularly ironic that you would express displeasure at this, with comments like "I didn't vote for that" etc., when you are advocating a "no polls without dissent" system. So when the result is not what you want, you scream wheres the poll? Otherwise you don't want polls:lol: Hillarious..
    7. Sometimes... This time? Definitely
    8. No I don't mind at all... As I have already said, I realize that discussons flow naturally sometimes... I will read all the threads and glean the poll choices from them.
    9. I thought YOU were against this... You scolded :king: a while back that we already have too many stickied threads...
    My thought was that old poll alerts would die out after they were no longer relevant and bubble down to the end of the forum. However... If a Sticky thread for Poll Alerts will make you IN FAVOR of more polls then I am OK with that idea, 100% (as long as I still get to use huge size 5 font:lol:) If you still will be against polls anyway, then what is the point:confused:
    10. As I said before... I will answer your questions if you ask me one... If you don't ask a question then you get the last word. But you already knew that:p The reason you asked questions is because you wanted a response... you want to continue this discussion. It's ironic that you keep complaining that the polls are inhibiting participation, because YOUR PARTICIPATION has increased dramatically as a result of the polling issue. You obviously LOVE talking about polls!!!:) What I want to hear... Is the horror story that has made you so averse to polling... You have over 11,000 posts so obviously you have had a bad polling experience besides "Potterygate." Lets hear it:goodjob:
     
  9. donsig

    donsig Low level intermediary

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    Sommers, more than one of my ten questions were meant to be humorous rhetorical questions. (You do know what a rhetorical questions is, don't you?)

    I don't think you've missed them you just haven't addressed them. One post in particular of yours sticks in my mind. You said I raised some points you hadn't considered then went on to talk about something else then ended by saying your system is fine and you're not gonna change it. The points that are important to me are in the ten questions I asked so you might want to pay special attention to them.

    This is one of the main problems I have with your polling system. You've latched onto city builds as one of the things we need a poll for every time, regardless of whether we can reach a decision through discussion or not. I have never said we should never have polls. I have said we should limit their use to when we actually need them. Your response is basically, city building is an important issue and I think polls will increase participation so I'm gonna go through a formal polling process no matter what. It is this mentality that infuriates me, especially when there are other more useful polls you could be overseeing.

    I guess we're not getting each others jokes. But since you yourself stated the large fonts were not stopping people from posting in the wrong place, would you please :please: stop using them? (This is not a rhetorical question.)

    See my response to your second answer. The last tech poll was not needed. It was pretty clear we agreed as a team to go for masonry and monotheism. The 8-1-0 poll result shows we did not need this poll. The team would have been much better off had you funneled discussion towards a poll on what we want our alliance members to work on next.

    Sommers, I hope you will read this and try to understand what the words mean. I am not super offended by polls - only by bad polls and unnecessary polls. I'm not worried about you making bad polls but I am worried that you will continue to make needless polls while at the same time ignoring issues that we should be polling. One issue we should certainly poll is whether we need a poll on every city built and every 'next tech'.

    I'm glad you found this question hilarious since it was meant to be a joke. Unfortunately I think you get the wrong joke. I'm pretty sure I haven't advocated a "no polls without dissent" system since I don't even know what that is. :confused: So, since I didn't dissent when you said you were gonna start polling I have to live with what you're doing now? It seems to me you've taken it upon yourself not only to administer polls but to decide what it is we have to poll. That is what I don't like. We should be deciding as a team what we're going to poll rather than have you unilaterally decide we're going to poll every city we build and every 'next tech'.

    Ok, I guess I'll start using the :sarcasm: for you.

    You should not come up with poll choices by going through all threads with a fine tooth comb. If we're gonna have a poll then there should be formal discussions for poll options. Here's how I think the system should work:
    1. We decide we need a poll.
    2. An announcement of an upcoming poll is made (let's not get into where that announcement is made just yet.)
    3. The poll announcement includes the suggested poll question, suggested options, a short summary of where the discussion is at the time of the announcement, a timetable for the poll and (if possible) a listing of the stances of team members.
    4. Once the announcement is made team members have a chance to ask for other poll options or ask that some suggested options be removed. If one team member formally requests an option it is to be included.
    5. Discussion continues and either leads to consensus (and therefore no poll) or to the poll.
    Number one here is a key. We decide as a team whether we need a poll. We do not automatically poll a decision just to poll it.

    I went back and looked at the stickies and there are only 4. Not bad but I still think we should unsticky the turn log. Posts are made there on a regular basis so that thread will no disappear. Let's unsticky the turn log and create a sticky thread for poll announcements.

    My posts here have increased by not my participation towards helping this team win. If we did not have this flaming argument over polls my limited time could have been put to better use elsewhere in the diplomatic field or maybe even by dabbling in some testing. Yes, I have had some bad experiences with polls on these forums. I'm not going to relive those but if you're interested go through the old [civ3] democracy game archives. The point is I've also been on team games here where we have been able to continually reach agreements on what to do with very few polls. We have been able to do that because we have members there who know [c3c] very well and so discussions are fact based. We have a good core here who know BtS and our system of testing cuts through many differences of opinion (thereby rendering many potential polls unnecessary). All I ask is that you poll only what needs to be polled.
     
  10. Sommerswerd

    Sommerswerd I never yielded

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    On another note... I am not sure how to "sticky" a thread, I'm embarrased to say:blush:
     
  11. Indiansmoke

    Indiansmoke Deity

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    you go to the needed things thread and ask an admin to do it for you
     
  12. Sommerswerd

    Sommerswerd I never yielded

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    No Don, I do not... You have already demonstrated to my satisfaction that you oppose polls and cannot be persuaded... So there is no point in distracting you any further. Don't be mistaken that I do not want to argue, I am just bored arguing with the Don about this, its pointless... Especially if someone is boycotting polls... what does it matter what someone thinks about polls if they are intentionally not participating in them anymore?

    However, I do wish that we could get some diplomatic messages out to the other teams and get some tech trade deals sealed. I am beginning to think that maybe a single foreign minister is not such a good idea.:( Provo was the whip of the Original treaty, the one who really forced it to move it along. And ever since Provo was shooed away from diplomacy we have not been able to get any progress on any new treaties, tech trades, anything. Even :king: has been chastised for his useful and productive MSN chats.

    So maybe we should all just put our collective efforts into diplomacy from now on through PMs, MSNs, email, whatever it takes to get the deals moving and win this game.

    As I have said many, many times. I think that peoples PMs, chatlogs, email etc. are their own personal business and I categorically reject any rule that requires or purports to require people to share their personal business. (Especially a rule that has not been voted on). If folks voluntarily share, fine. If they summarize, fine. If not, Oh well...

    I look forward with great anticipation to people's responses:D
     
  13. Provolution

    Provolution Sage of Quatronia

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    If I am given the authority to fast-track a combined treaty with Saturn (Archery for Masonry and Horsebackriding for Ironworking and Polytheism) and Sancta (Alphabet and Polytheism for Metal Casting), I will do so right away. Since we are not allowed to even poll whether or not anyone should get this fast-track negotiation authority, I guess we would be in limbo, thanks to a few principled players that couldnt care any less for results.
     
  14. Sommerswerd

    Sommerswerd I never yielded

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    Well if we declare a boycott on diplomacy rules, I guess it would be perfectly fine for Provo to go ahead and negotiate and then execute the tech trades. Nothing technically prevents anyone on the team from making in-game trades... other than our mutual respect for each other and our other team-members... All of them... Not just the "Supreme Six.";)
     
  15. Provolution

    Provolution Sage of Quatronia

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    Yes, its very curious how some are very harsh on laws and procedure, when it fits them, and leave it dead, veto or boycott when that is opportune too. This reminds me a bit too much of todays Zimbabwe.
     
  16. donsig

    donsig Low level intermediary

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    Provo, please do not try to fast track tech trades with Saturn and SANCTA. We have a treaty with both Team Cav and the Mad Scientists that says we will not make tech trades with Saturn or SANCTA unless Team Cav and the Mad Scientists approve the trades. If we make a deal that is not approved by our allies we risk losing those allies.
     
  17. Sommerswerd

    Sommerswerd I never yielded

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    This thread is getting off topic... We should be discussing polling here... not tech or tech trades...

    As far as polling goes here is a recent PM between myself and Herviov (with Herviov's permission :love:... Thanks Herviov:
     
  18. donsig

    donsig Low level intermediary

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    Nice Supreme Six. I am honored to be included in this elite group. I just don't see what it is the Supreme Six / Supreme Court is supposed to be doing? It obviously isn't Provo's voting bloc that is secretly controlling the team, since these six obviously don't agree on much. :lol:
     
  19. cav scout

    cav scout The Continuum

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    Sommers, thank you for sharing your pm with Herviov. I have enjoyed the back and forth between us up to this point. But you have now accused me of "wanting to make all the decision with little or no input from the rest of the team." Seriously?

    Do you honestly think I'm trying to be part of some "elite cabal" that runs the team and tries to exclude others? Or are you just so intent on winning an argument that you have feel the need to smear your opponents with dishonest and completely unfair characterizations?

    When Herviov came back to the discussion I was the first person to respond to his post:

    So I guess going to the trouble of making a dotmap for another player to welcome him back and help him articulate his position (a position I personally disgareed with) is exclusionary huh? I have consistently welcomed all opinions and have even helped others advocate positions I disagreed with when I thought others were missing the point they were trying to make.

    I WANT open and thorough debate here. I want everyone to be able contribute. I consider every opinion expressed here and frequently change my mind when someone makes a persuasive argument. What I fear is that your rigid polling structure will in fact stiffle debate and open our team up to demagoguery. You complain of a "supreme 6" holding the power but in reality it is your plan that follows the ages old blueprint of a power grab.

    Our team got away from excessive polls for a reason. Even the most active players would see a poll and vote, then later change their minds after reading the opinions of others. Remember the poll where everyone changed their vote to Hunting after Smoke pointed out the 20% tech bonus of researching Hunting before AH? We got away from polls when we discovered that doing a vote tally and updating it worked better.
     
  20. damnrunner

    damnrunner Emperor

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    This has not happened since that poll, and I think are new system is designed to help give polls structure so as to avoid it in the future.

    I think keeping a vote tally and updating as we go is cumbersome and more prone to error than a well run poll. And Sommers seems to be running these polls quite well. Only problem seems to be people who are boycotting.
     

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