Pollution and Crime?

<Nexus>

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Continuing the discussion started in Guild/Corporation Yield Balancing

Spoiler :

I think it was meant to give Green a little chance :p

I think it will never be a really useful civic without a good "environmental pollution" system :(

Green will never have a chance as long as Free Market has a say in the matter :lol:

Aye, like the Pollution system from C2C. I actually liked the Pollution system in that mod, and how it influenced things. Leaving forests and jungles untouched was beneficial, building a lot of industry would slowly leave a negative impact... While I doubt it'll ever become a core mechanic of AND (Even though if implemented properly, it could be a pretty strong addition) maybe as a Module it could work its way in. I wasn't very big on Flammability, had a neutral to indifferent opinion on Crime, but I liked the Pollution concept.

Lots of things in C2C are neat ideas, but generally totally overdone. Even Pollution, which I agree works on some level, is split into two unnecessarily and ramps up to extremely severe penalties very quickly.

What I don't like about C2C Pollution and Crime is (other than the things mentioned before) is the use of auto-buildings :sad:

I thought that auto-buildings (with the applicable effects) were the point of those systems.

I don't like the very approach of auto-buildings for some reason but cannot really explain, other than I think there could be better ways to do it. Something more like revolutions/culture: a bar increasing/decreasing, reaching levels and causing effects.

Would be interesting to see if that'd work, but if not then auto-buildings is something that already works so no need to reinvent anything. However it goes about being done, it's something I'd like to see sometime.

At least early code for pollution was imported in AND dll a long time ago; I did it when I was importing mostly bug fixes from C2C dll years ago. But it definitely requires more work to import all the most recent dll code, not to mention XML and python needed for interface. But pollution is not something I want to add to AND. Maybe in a modmod, but definitely not now.

Well... if the dll/python was there with a modular XML switch to turn on the mechanics than maybe I could handle the xml part in a modmod.
Although I don't really like the auto-building way of it, it's still better than nothing in my view.

Same; I liked the concept of it and how your actions impacted things. I don't really have any strong opinions of the auto-building mechanic though, it never really bothered me but I do feel it could be accomplished in a more efficient way (and thus no spammed notifications about X being "built" in 17 different cities at once)
 
Preeeetty much every thing he/I just said xD

Really, I do like the idea of C2C's Pollution system, and how it affects not only your cities but the environment too. The environment surrounding you in turn affects your cities - forests and the like healing the pollution effect while forges and factories damage it further. I like the thought that your industrial expansion would have consequences, so at a certain point, you'll need to think about balancing industry with keeping the environment around you - and your own cities - healthy.


I wasn't as big on the Crime or Flammability mechanics though.
 
Pollution was definitely the best of the properties, though Housing was neat from an immersion point of view. Crime and Disease seemed to be just ways to throttle economy and city growth, whereas Pollution was the inevitable result of loading up on hammer buildings. Thus whilst everything else just seemed to happen to you, Pollution was something (in principle) for which you were directly responsible.
 
This is just my current opinion on the topic.

You could go ahead and do this as a modmod, but I don't think it would be a good idea to include this in the main AND mod. If I remember correctly, the purpose of the crime/disease/pollution systems was to soak up all the extra happiness and health from having numerous individual +1 health and +1 happiness buildings. (I don't follow C2C any more, but I was recently playing in one of the big MP games, and my capital had 30 happiness on the happy side in the Ancient Era.)

I think most of AND is pretty well balanced on the health and happiness front. I've noticed happiness is tight in the early game and health is a struggle around the Industrial. So if you add an extra system with negative health and negative happiness, then you have to either scale up existing happiness and health sources or add new ones, and that just feels to me like additional complexity with the same net effect. C2C had the positive side of the ledger already established by their design philosophy and needed the negatives to balance it out. We could accomplish the same thing by scaling up the penalties and scaling down the bonuses on existing buildings. For example, the Arena-Stadium-Zero G line is currently +2/+5/+8 happiness. I want to test if it could come down to something like +1/+3/+5.

If the complexity is what you want, then go for it. I want AND to be a nice robust framework for additional add-ons that anyone can pick and choose from.
 
With the advent of the Property System, developed for C2C by AIAndy, Crime, Disease, Pollution, and Education are not soak pits for Health and Happiness. They can and do affect both (sometimes very much so) but not as presented here.

But to add any of these systems to AND would take very much work. As these systems in C2C are still evolving. But don't take your perceptions of even last years version of C2C and think that you have a grasp of what C2C is doing and striving for today. If you have not played the current SVN version then your data and impressions of C2C have holes, and in some cases big holes. And Vokayra the Massive game was started with version 28. The last update brought it to the beginning of version 36. But because a Bug found in that Pbem game your memories are based on mid v34 at the latest. Just to put things in perspective and proper context.

In the context of this discussion though AND is better off not incorporating any of these systems imhpo. It would change your focus. And while AND and C2C had a similar base at their respective starts, both are almost polar opposites of each other today. A prime example is your own heavy dependence upon Rev. And while C2C still has Rev in it, it's importance as a core piece dwindles with each new version.

Finally yes we all have impressions and opinions about other mods and how they work. But if the Mod id still in development make sure your impressions and opinions are up to date. :)

@ Vokarya,
Would you Please PM me your massive game password. Thanks. Several of us want to continue that game now that the hindering bug has been fixed. Others such as your self do not want to, which is understandable.

@ 45*, Arakhor, Rezca,
:wavey:

JosEPh
 
I'm interested in the Pollution mechanic more for the complexity and 'roleplay' value of it than a balancing one personally. I'd like to see it as a modmod, even if it's just a simplified version of C2C's - which would probably be best really. :culture:


And hello to you too Joseph :D
 
@ 45*, Arakhor, Rezca,
:wavey:

JosEPh


:wavey:

It's one of the reasons why I don' want to merge pollution into AND right now. The mod is mostly complete, rock stable and balanced: I don't want to add other features which might change gameplay greatly. I know about the properties system and I think that's mostly included in AND dll now, I've imported the code months ago; I would just need to update the dll to the latest C2C changes and import what python/XML is needed. But right now I'm more focused on fixing some bugs and fine tuning the mod. Also, I still want to make the mod work in MP with Pitboss and solve some more OOS. In my last game with my wife we've reached Modern Era (Direct IP) and we had no OOS for 60 turns which is definitely good.
 
Hi, @JosEPh_II. :)

45*, AND should definitely be pretty much feature-locked by now, but we do have Zeta on hand to do other stuff when you and Vokarya are done. ;)
 
Hi, @JosEPh_II. :)

45*, AND should definitely be pretty much feature-locked by now, but we do have Zeta on hand to do other stuff when you and Vokarya are done. ;)

Vokarya did say he wanted to keep modding after the main AND is finished, in the form of modules and the like that people could pick and choose optionally. Development with AND doesn't necessarily have to cease just because it's been considered feature complete, always room for add-ons and such~
 
Hi, @JosEPh_II. :)

45*, AND should definitely be pretty much feature-locked by now, but we do have Zeta on hand to do other stuff when you and Vokarya are done. ;)
Although right now I have ZERO time for modding or playing, I would be willing to take care of a "Crime and Pollution" modmod, or a "Crime" and a "Pollution" modmods. I'd like these for more challenge too.

But I can work only with xml (and music and graphics a bit) so to do anything I will need all DLL and Python to set up.
 
Although right now I have ZERO time for modding or playing, I would be willing to take care of a "Crime and Pollution" modmod, or a "Crime" and a "Pollution" modmods. I'd like these for more challenge too.

But I can work only with xml (and music and graphics a bit) so to do anything I will need all DLL and Python to set up.
In contrast I have nothing but free time, but ZERO skill with modding other than tiny lil' XML tweaks to simple values :lol:

Having Crime and Pollution separate would be nice, since I liked the Pollution system but didn't really care for Crime.
 
Having Crime and Pollution separate would be nice, since I liked the Pollution system but didn't really care for Crime.
I like the idea of Crime as an "expansion" of revolutions. If you are doing things good you will face only one of them: Revolutions if you oppress your people. Crime if you leave them much liberty. Both if you are doing things wrong and neither if you are extremely good :)
"Just have to find a good balance" so the AI won't suffer from both :shifty:
 
Have you played C2C lately Zeta Nexus, post v37? Crime with the addition of Law Enforcement and Criminals is a whole new animal than the old crime system. And ThunderBrd has been writing AI code to go along with it.

JosEPh
 
No, not for ages.
Same here; not sure what the last revision I played was, but when hundreds of revisions - some deemed 'major' - went by and the "Attack from behind" bug was still present, I gave up. Trying to maintain downloading and updating such a massive mod when a (to me) critical flaw was still glaringly present throughout so many updates I just lost interest. I didn't really like how every city would build a dozen things a turn either (Since after a while even in the Ancient Era an average city would have several hundred points of production overflow permanently) and never really figured out a way to disable production overflow.

When I first played C2C this attack "bug" wasn't present, then I updated mid-game and found some new techs like cheesmaking and locks, but it also introduced that combat nonsense where the game always insisted on throwing the WORST unit into battle while simultaneously showing the combat odds for the BEST unit. When working with mixed stacks, it was more micromanagement than I was willing to endure, and I never could find that old version of C2C I had - not on my hard drives, external storage, or the official downloads.

Sure, when working with small stacks it wasn't that big of a deal. But with so much unit variety throughout the ages and when larger stacks got involved, it became too much hassle to have to babysit my armies through every single attack - turning a simple battle that'd take seconds to decide in BTS, AND, or any other mod into a minutes long clickfest. I never had this sort of problem in other mods or BTS, I could actually trust my stack of units to actually go up against the units they were most effective against.

It was cool playing from the Prehistoric and working your way up, and I really enjoyed the Pollution mechanics and the civic choices (Although the last I checked, they still had vague and/or entirely useless descriptions... "Your nation has uses X for its agriculture" "Power!" etc compared to AND which actually tells you what the civic is) and didn't all that mind the 'filler' techs that did nothing (Abyssal Colonization, etc) but that combat bug made things unbearable for me.

The last I remember playing was when the revamped Invisibility/Stealth mechanics were being added in, where there was more than just a binary Can be Seen / Cannot be Seen levels of stealth.
 
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Pardon my digression to the older topic of pollution in AND. I agree it doesn't want a new mechanic.

But, I suggest that BtS tied itself in knots, the way it implemented pollution ...why people feel a need to add something fixing it. Maybe better straighten-out the convoluted bonuses/penalties system, especially to make AND mod-mod friendly. For example you need Oil :yuck: to get the offset :health: from Public Transit. The intent was for PT to neutralize automobile pollution. Well, that's kinda like needing Tobacco, to build Hospitals. It looks like much of the :health: is really meant to obsolete specific :yuck: penalties. These should work to cancel each other, but instead they pile up on both sides.

The basic problem is that health and un-health is redundant and confusing. A better system, I believe, would not have :health: at all; just +/- :yuck: , and some means of directly cancelling the :yuck: from specific buildings, resources, or whatever. For some reason the original game instead kludged the :health: concept "extra healthy" (!?). I don't imagine anyone can fix that.

How about just pruning out the obvious offsets/redundancies, like that Green gets lots of :health: because it eschews pollution :yuck: ? I mean, better make Green not get those :yuck: in the first place (somewhat already), instead give some meaningful advantages like :) for harmony with nature, +relations ("proved your good intentions"), accelerated forest growth, etc.
 
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