PolyCast Episode 73: "More Tangenty Than Usual"

[DanQ]

Just when you thought it couldn't be any more so. The seventy-third episode of PolyCast is now netcasting. "More Tangenty Than Usual" features regular co-hosts Daniel "DanQ" Quick, Makahlua, Imran Sidiqui and Annalee "Cartimandua" Barney with returning guest co-hosts Alexander "Alexander" Strub and Solver.

The summary of topics is as follows:

- 02m27s | Forum Talk
The three missing leader trait combos, with last related discussion from Episode 10 in March 2007, and top not-quite-as-many-as-ten tips to getting started in Civilization IV last discussed during Episode 15 in May 2007.
- 10m23s | Vault (1 of 2)
Bragging about your most experienced CivIV unit (from Episode 49) and should resources be more valuable (from Episode 71).
- 23m41s | Research Lab
A new idea for Civ combat on a chess-like board, the use of ammunition and introducing animals.
- 33m16s | Vault (2 of 2)
A third-party list of Top 10 games that teach you something (from Pilot 01) and another's Top 100 best games to play today (from Episode 65), both of which include CivIV.
- 39m02s | Senate
The potential benefits of playing on a team with another human in multiplayer in CivIV, and what of single-player and the Artificial Intelligence.

- Intro/Outro | Miscellaneous
Why one of the guests think they can leave early, another is told to keep quiet, how much both of them regret coming back on a given scale, and how one of them reasons it is time for them to go.

PolyCast is a bi-weekly audio production in an ongoing effort to give the Civ community an interactive voice on game strategy. A nominee in the "Best Produced" and "Gaming" categories of the 2008 Podcast Awards, sibling show ModCast focuses on Civ modding and RevCast focuses on Civilization: Revolution.

As always, enjoy.

 

[Rusty Edge]

The sound seemed a bit fuzzy to me on the vault 1 segment, as if they had staionary mics and couldn't keep their heads still... or maybe I have wax build-up in my hearing aides...

The discusion on ammunition was way tangenty and way funny.

 

[DanQ]

The sound seemed a bit fuzzy to me on the vault 1 segment, as if they had staionary mics and couldn't keep their heads still... or maybe I have wax build-up in my hearing aides...

In the resources value topic, Phillip (TheMeInTeam) was experiencing some microphone difficulties during recording which I was unable to compensate much for. I take it that this is what you are referring to specifically or..?

The discusion on ammunition was way tangenty and way funny.

 

[ruff_hi]

Nice episode but Cartimandua was a bit volume deprived.

Most Experienced Unit
I was playing in a OCC Always War Deity Succession game and we got 3 units up over 1000XPs ...


This guy actually got to 70XP as an archer and one of our turn players upgraded him to longbow before attaching the GG (back down to 10XP ).

Religious Diplo Victory
This victory condition is not well understood. You need to get the required votes (see F8) to win, but (after patch 3.17) you can not just vote yourself the winner. If you have enough votes to win all by yourself, the victory vote doesn't even come up. If you manage to have 'not enough' votes at the start of the turn, the victory vote will come up but if you gain extra votes to put you over the limit (ie religion spread, revolt to AP religion) then (after v3.17) the vote is canceled.

You get 1 vote for every city population point that has the AP religion.
If you are in the AP religion, your votes are doubled.
If you are on a team, then your votes are combined and count towards the 'cannot vote yourself the winner'
Build AP religion buildings are fun, give AP hammers but do nothing for getting AP votes.

 

[Rusty Edge]

In the resources value topic, Phillip (TheMeInTeam) was experiencing some microphone difficulties during recording which I was unable to compensate much for. I take it that this is what you are referring to specifically or..?

Both male guests were hard for me to hear in that segment. Sounded like microphone trouble.

Also, ruff_hi is right, Cartimandua was on the soft side this episode.

 

[AlphaShard]

Both male guests were hard for me to hear in that segment. Sounded like microphone trouble.

Also, ruff_hi is right, Cartimandua was on the soft side this episode.

Didn't she tell the two guest hosts to basically shut up? That doesn't sound soft to me. Oh wait you mean Volume don't you? lol

 

[DanQ]

Both male guests were hard for me to hear in that segment. Sounded like microphone trouble.

There were three male guest co-hosts: Peachrocks, TheDS and TheMeInTeam. Was it the latter two you were experiencing difficulties with then?

Nice episode but Cartimandua was a bit volume deprived.

... ruff_hi is right, Cartimandua was on the soft side this episode.

Cartimandua and Alexander were recording in the same physical space using the same microphone. I believe he was closest to it, while she was seated a bit farther back, which led to her being more quiet on this episode than usual.

Didn't she tell the two guest hosts to basically shut up? That doesn't sound soft to me. Oh wait you mean Volume don't you? lol

I don't think she told Solver to be quiet.

 

[Rusty Edge]

There were three male guest co-hosts: Peachrocks, TheDS and TheMeInTeam. Was it the latter two you were experiencing difficulties with then?

I'm not sure who was talking, I might as well play it again and see what I can make out.


Dan, you forgot to ask Solver to say "Photon torrpedoes arrmed and ready, Cyaptain"

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Moving is a pain. Finally got a chance to listen.

- Vanilla was pretty different from BTS today. I'm not convinced IND/PHI (post IND nerf) would still be too strong now. A lot of good players rate IND as a mediocre trait rather than a good one, so supposedly existing trait combos are stronger.

- I always felt myself more of a Civ sadist rather than masochist, TBH

- Some AIs have some questionable behavior for sure, such as AGG/ORG preferring wonders strongly.

- The civ IV CD does not ask for much. Only your soul.

- Escorting settlers is not necessary. Spawn bust instead . Your "escorts" are already in position and you don't have to risk your settler when/if they are attacked (which will be less frequent).

- Some of the GG XP results are insane. Even in immortal domination games I often don't kill enough units total to get there...

- If you actually went for the pyramids, drama + rep is a viable alternative to monarchy. Being able to run more productive cities and more specialists in your higher food cities is worth a couple slider notches if you're not using commerce for much other than paying for your cities.

- Similization V . It's like an attack on people's mental disposition.

- IGN is...pretty terrible. Is that not the site that also suggests that Inca is a bad civ?!

- We're too elite for the world's good !

- Super mario world remains popular today due to ROM hacks. Zelda ALTTP was probably the best one ever.

- Manipulating AIs can be useful. HoF bans teams but allows PAs...so you can abuse them to win difficult games there...although you probably won't take top spots that way.

 

[DanQ]

Moving is a pain.

I get to look forward to that later this year...

- I always felt myself more of a Civ sadist rather than masochist, TBH

- The civ IV CD does not ask for much. Only your soul.

- Escorting settlers is not necessary. Spawn bust instead . Your "escorts" are already in position and you don't have to risk your settler when/if they are attacked (which will be less frequent).

Yes, with spawnbusting the benefit of the escort's presence boils down to happiness cap considerations (and that's only in the longer(ish) term, particulars depending). Wish I'd mentioned both options at least...

- If you actually went for the pyramids, drama + rep is a viable alternative to monarchy. Being able to run more productive cities and more specialists in your higher food cities is worth a couple slider notches if you're not using commerce for much other than paying for your cities.

Hadn't considered that angle before myself.

- Similization V . It's like an attack on people's mental disposition.

- IGN is...pretty terrible.

That's what can make it great fodder for the show then.

Is that not the site that also suggests that Inca is a bad civ?!

I remember a popular general gaming site making that claim too, and IGN sounds right as its source...

- We're too elite for the world's good !

Support for my position at last!

 

[AlphaShard]

It was Gamespy and in this thread.

This is what the Gamespy person had to say about the Incas':

The Incans and Zulus are the weakest two civilizations in the game, and because of Huayna Capac's attributes, the Incans are easily the worse of the two. Although the combination theoretically gives the Incans a good economy, they won't be able to take enough land to suck in the resources and churn out enough money to offset their weaknesses. In other words, they suck, and no amount of gold they make will change that. If you're going for a handicap match, have the better player pick the Incans to even things out.

So what you should do is get THIS guy into multiplayer and beat him with Incas. That'd show him.

I can't see how he could consider FIN to be a bad trait to have, it's already going to give you a commerce advantage.

Oh and they were also the same person that said Slavery was a worthless civic.

I thought this was interesting:

It's good to see our 16th president back in the game... he was the default leader for all Civilization games prior to IV, but was suspiciously absent until this expansion pack. Lincoln's perks don't come noticeably into play until the late game, but his Philosophical trait—which doubles the rate of Great Person creation—means you can hit your first Golden Age fairly quickly. Philosophical also gets those Universities up and running quickly, giving America a poignant research advantage. With Lincoln at the helm, the American player should be the technological leader as the game reaches its end, excellent if you're playing for a Space Victory.

Well I hope this isn't a paid professional journalist here showing his biasis. I mean he is aware that this game is being played in other countries? Not to mention people reading the website in other countries.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Well I hope this isn't a paid professional journalist here showing his biasis. I mean he is aware that this game is being played in other countries? Not to mention people reading the website in other countries.

I'm a lot more concerned with the implication that one should use an early GP on a golden age...which tends to be flat-out bad advice.

 

[Rusty Edge]

There were three male guest co-hosts: Peachrocks, TheDS and TheMeInTeam. Was it the latter two you were experiencing difficulties with then?



Cartimandua and Alexander were recording in the same physical space using the same microphone. I believe he was closest to it, while she was seated a bit farther back, which led to her being more quiet on this episode than usual.

I heard TheDS just fine. Peachrocks was probably too close to a mic without a Nerf cover, because it sounded sort of like his breath was passing through the mic with every other word. As or TheMeInTeam, he was kind of sketchy... I couldn't hear all of his syllables, and when I could there was often some sort of distortion or reverb...

So, Cartimandua was distant, Peachrocks was breathy, TMIT was "blurry" , TheDS had a language barrier, Alexander was told not to talk, but only Solver wanting to leave was Dan's fault.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

My laptop failing gave me issues ----> had to use windows 2k on my desktop, and without some fairly advanced (and not free) software and a good bit of knowledge there is no way to get the recording device and conferencing software functioning at the same time under 2k. DanQ had to use a backup for me rather than the feed, which was probably the issue in my case.

In other words, a new computer would be nice .

 

[backblast]

Enjoyable listen.

I wonder if perhaps the Animals topic was dismissed too abruptly. Fall from Heaven has the capture animals mechanic, including buildings that depend on captured animals. Maybe it only works in the Fall from Heaven setting and would not work in another context, but Fall from Heaven is a popular enough mod that I was surprised it did not come up.

More generally, popular mods would be a good source for new mechanics to evaluate in the Research Lab segment-- and it could lead to a more concrete discussion that the current Research Lab segment, which sometimes (through no fault of the hosts of course) is based on half-baked forum thread ideas.

 

[DanQ]

Enjoyable listen.

I wonder if perhaps the Animals topic was dismissed too abruptly. Fall from Heaven has the capture animals mechanic, including buildings that depend on captured animals. Maybe it only works in the Fall from Heaven setting and would not work in another context, but Fall from Heaven is a popular enough mod that I was surprised it did not come up.

More generally, popular mods would be a good source for new mechanics to evaluate in the Research Lab segment-- and it could lead to a more concrete discussion that the current Research Lab segment, which sometimes (through no fault of the hosts of course) is based on half-baked forum thread ideas.

While most if not all PolyCast panelists, regulars and guests, are aware of CivIV's most popular mods -- of which 'Fall from Heaven' is a if not the brightest star of them all -- modding of the game is not covered on the show; rather, that is the focus of its younger sibling ModCast. The reason for this, effective January 2008, was because before then all but one the PC crew played little to no mods, and had no experience in the development of any. The person who did have such usage and experience went onto initiate the ModCast panel (Wouter "Locutus" Snijders), and he's still there.

 

[obsolete]

but his Philosophical trait—which doubles the rate of Great Person creation—means you can hit your first Golden Age fairly quickly.

Ok, that just made my day.

He who gets Golden Age in 2000 BC first... wins?

I also love the part about cheap universities meaning you will soar up in tech in the late game.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Ok, that just made my day.

He who gets Golden Age in 2000 BC first... wins?

I also love the part about cheap universities meaning you will soar up in tech in the late game.

I've seen a couple deity guys go music for the artist lately and burn a golden age on the flip to bureaucracy and caste/pacifism (possibly getting out of the latter at the end of it). It seemed a little strange to me at first but I guess that's one way to quickly accrue GPP for a liberalism bulb.

Fast oxford is a pretty big deal (in SGOTM 9 the correlation between oxford completion date and eventual spaceship win time was ridiculous), but of course they don't mention that .

 

[Camikaze]

Good to see Research Lab back...

 

[Camikaze]

Sorry for the double post, but I just listened to it, so now I'll put my angry face on.

You were way, way, way too harsh on the valued resources and ammunition ideas. Your main complaint seemed to be that it would be too tedious and add too much micromanagement to the game. However, the general consensus on the ideas was to have them as implicit aspects of the game that did not require micromanagement, such as what I said here:

So supply should be a part of the game, but an automated one. This would still satisfy the need to maintain supply routes and supply lines, but would avoid the tedium of micromanaging supply units.

With the resource thread, the main idea was to have quantifiable resources and depleting resources, but again, as an implicit aspect of the game. i.e. You would not have to do any micromanagement whatsoever in order to have resources function perfectly. However, there would be a finite amount of a given resource, that you could keep track of, that would deplete over time. If you desired, the option for a small degree of micromanagement would be there (what cities use particular resources), but other than that, all you would have to do with resources is improve them, and connect them, just as in Civ 4. The only difference is in realism, and enhanced gameplay if you like some micromanagement.

Similarly, the ammunition idea wouldn't require any micromanagement, so much as a tiny bit more military strategy. Ammunition and supply lines would be automated. The only thing you would have to do is protect those easily viewable and uncomplicated supply lines. I think adding this layer to military in civ would make it more fun. It isn't making it tedious or harder, just more realistic. Realism comes largely in the sense that it would add a kind of distance to palace maintenance, whilst reducing the cost of more local wars. Unit maintenance, IIRC, doesn't really do that. Not to mention the added benefit of reducing the power of SoDs, by forcing a more spread army, and the weakening of attacking forces, to combat what seems to be a unfair balance towards the aggressor in most civ wars. And all this, as said, without any extra micromanagement. Unless you count splitting your stack of 200 into 5 smaller stacks to protect supply tiles as micromanagement.

/end of rant

I completely agree on what you said about chess-like strategy and animals.