Poo Poo Catapults

[alireza1354]

Niceeeeeeeeeeeee!


Lost 5 catapults just to city defence.

Whats wrong with these worthless units? If they are so weak, why not make them buildable in 1 turn or something?

What nonsense.

 

[Bandobras Took]

They no longer require Iron to build.

You're going to lose a lot for the simple reason that they're great vs. cities and they actually bothered to teach the AI to take out the greatest threats to city health.

 

[Adjuvant]

Yeh, haha. First G&K game I spammed them (what! no iron req.?!?), then about started punching kittens when they hit units for 9 damage.

 

[Zaimejs]

You need to plant melee units with them. I noticed that the AI will attack horses first, so if you send in a couple or horsemen, the city will attack them leaving your catapults to do their duty.

 

[Adjuvant]

I was using them as city defense. Pfff. Bows hit harder.

 

[bhavv]

Catapults arent meant to be used for city defense, they are for attacking cities. The only siege units valid for city defense are the Hwacha and Artillery. Ranged units are much better until those.

 

[Adjuvant]

Yes, now I know, and knowing is half the battle...













...the other half is blue and red lasers.

But they were so nice in vanilla

 

[alireza1354]

You need to plant melee units with them. I noticed that the AI will attack horses first, so if you send in a couple or horsemen, the city will attack them leaving your catapults to do their duty.

REAAAAAAAAAAAAALLLYYYY

I go test!

 

[Putmalk]

Catapults arent meant to be used for city defense, they are for attacking cities. The only siege units valid for city defense are the Hwacha and Artillery. Ranged units are much better until those.

He didn't use them for city defense, he used them AGAINST city defense.

Maybe Sieges units should receive a Cover promotion? So that they can survive more than one or two hits by a city? (and force melee to kill them).

 

[Camikaze]

Definitely not useless; you kinda need them to take cities. It's just that now you can't throw your units haphazardly at the enemy. You actually have to plan an attack. If you say you lost 5 catapults to city defence, that indicates that you weren't sending your forces in in a co-ordinated manner; a city can only target one unit at a time. If you have four catapults and even one of them gets killed per turn, that's still 3 shots on the first turn, then 2 shots, then another shot. So 6 shots at the city. You should have other melee units with you that can finish off the job.

 

[Adjuvant]

He didn't use them for city defense, he used them AGAINST city defense.

Maybe Sieges units should receive a Cover promotion? So that they can survive more than one or two hits by a city? (and force melee to kill them).

I think he was replying to me...

...and they "used to" get cover. Do they not anymore on 3rd upgrade?

edit: ah, hmm, solved my own question. cover is only available to melee.

 

[Harthhal]

He didn't use them for city defense, he used them AGAINST city defense.

Maybe Sieges units should receive a Cover promotion? So that they can survive more than one or two hits by a city? (and force melee to kill them).

Actually the guy above him did say he used them for city defense. Heck the way they upgraded catapults, or at least cannons because they didn't require iron, were great for city defense. It's just that now that archers stay ranged and siege lost it's damage vs units that it doesn't make sense. Some habits just take longer to kick then others.

 

[civnoob13]

Definitely not useless; you kinda need them to take cities. It's just that now you can't throw your units haphazardly at the enemy. You actually have to plan an attack. If you say you lost 5 catapults to city defence, that indicates that you weren't sending your forces in in a co-ordinated manner; a city can only target one unit at a time. If you have four catapults and even one of them gets killed per turn, that's still 3 shots on the first turn, then 2 shots, then another shot. So 6 shots at the city. You should have other melee units with you that can finish off the job.

Unless you're attacking a heavily forested city like I have in the past. You have to get the catapults directly adjacent to the city and movement points are taken up, so that's already at least 2 catapults dead before you even fire, and then you have to consider having the melee as well to actually take the city. I think forested cities are now too hard to capture early game, especially with walls. I think catapults should be able to get an early promotion to be able to surpass forests / hills when firing.

 

[Putmalk]

My mistake, I thought he was replying to the OP.

 

[Harv72b]

Unless you're attacking a heavily forested city like I have in the past. You have to get the catapults directly adjacent to the city and movement points are taken up, so that's already at least 2 catapults dead before you even fire, and then you have to consider having the melee as well to actually take the city. I think forested cities are now too hard to capture early game, especially with walls. I think catapults should be able to get an early promotion to be able to surpass forests / hills when firing.

Send in one or two scouts ahead of the cats and fortify near the city. Same as the horsemen trick, the AI will bombard the scouts first because they're the only units in range, and then ignore your fully healthy catapults until all the wounded scouts are dead/withdrawn. If you can level the scouts up a couple times vs. barbarians so they defend/heal better, you might not even lose them.

 

[Camikaze]

Unless you're attacking a heavily forested city like I have in the past. You have to get the catapults directly adjacent to the city and movement points are taken up, so that's already at least 2 catapults dead before you even fire, and then you have to consider having the melee as well to actually take the city. I think forested cities are now too hard to capture early game, especially with walls. I think catapults should be able to get an early promotion to be able to surpass forests / hills when firing.

They are certainly much harder to take, but it's still doable.

Why make it easier? What is it too hard for? Rampaging across the map with little standing in your way?

 

[Aoxomoxoa]

Catapults vs units is a way bad idea. They hit like the Stay-PUF marshmallow man but defend like a tall house of cards. Roll them in after you've cleaned up the army outside the city walls.

I find that the army needs to be a little more balanced. I took Siam's capitol at level 24 in two turns of siege after clearing to the city with 2 cats 3 archers 1 sword, 1 pikeman and a horseman wandering the rears and flanks because he had a lot of jungle for things to sneak in on.

 

[Harthhal]

Through my trials* you have to bring overwhelming melee units for 1 city or 3-4 siege and4 melee units

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

I thought cities were too tough in the early game, too. Then I watched the AI (as Washington) take a City State in four turns, and move on to attack another City State a few turns later. All using just archers, warriors and spearmen. Lost a couple of units, but actually made a coordinated attack. It's doable - against cities in relatively open terrain where you can jam 3 - 4 ranged and 2 - 3 melee units against them. Forest/jungle wold be another problem altogether, and I'm not sure the AI could solve that one...

 

[Gorhaax]

I quite like catapults now. They were never really good at killing units, only buildings and cities. Civ G+K is trying to make combat make more sense historically then vanilla did. You actually need a variety of troops to take cities now. Don't just spam 1 unit type and then complain when your picked apart. I was able to take a 10 pop city from Austria with a 2 catapults 4 - 5 pikes and 2 - 3 composite bowmen.