Poor, poor rapists... WTH!?

[Crezth]

Then your previous post doesn't make sense. I was addressing NovaKart's idea that male issues receive somehow less attention than non-male issues. At least that's the only extrapolation that makes sense. And I have to say that that is not a self-evident proposition as male issues receive more attention than issues faced by any the one other demographic group.

 

[sophie]

It seems you didn't even bother to read what I said in this very thread. btw, I love how you have your own 'translation' for what words mean.

It's a movement which belittles the feminist movement and ignores the pressing fact that, hey, women are still unequal. Bbbbut there's stigma about being a male nurse!. Please

I've already made my case that rape is a problem as well as a woman's issue, yet you argue that I don't believe what I've already said it. That isn't my problem.

You make the same random prattlings about how men get raped too followed by an entirely unrelated rant about suicide. I read wrote. Your argument was essentially if 1 then a ergo .9999999....

I never said men aren't treated fairly. I said suicide is a men's issue.

1) that has no relevance to the issue of rape culture. 2) your argument really doesn't follow.

 

[NovaKart]

Where does this happen, exactly? As a white male living in mittelamerika, I've never felt particularly marginalized. That's anecdotal, yes, but "too often" I think suggests that there is a comparably bulky subset of issues about which nothing is done - but of all the things I can compare white male problems to, I think the problems faced by women and minorities of all kind are more numerous and certainly more ignored.

I'm not suggesting that men are marginalized, I posted that there are issues that effect men which are ignored. Not all men are white or live in middle American suburbia. I don't for one. There are numerous publications dedicated to all kinds of women's issues from more serious things like sexual assault and access to abortion to more fluffy things like which commercial of the day offends them. When I think of issues effecting men the first thing that comes to my mind is abuse of conscripted men in Turkey which is horrific and on the scale of world human rights is mostly ignored. Farm Boy already pointed out the more first world problems. I'm not trying to say that men are marginalized or anything like that but there are serious issues that are mostly ignored. I think the problems facing women are more often discussed in the media.

I pointed out I like that Cake is able to point out issues that effect men without demeaning women which many people can't do. It's obvious some of you have a big issue with him coming from past posts in other issues which you feel the need to drag into this one.

The post addresses somebody who thinks "We're a Winner" is much of a muchness with the Horst-Wessel-Lied. What do you expect?

I don't know if you're trying to be obscure or what, that reference flew way over my head.

 

[caketastydelish]

It's a movement which belittles the feminist movement and ignores the pressing fact that, hey, women are still unequal. Bbbbut there's stigma about being a male nurse!. Please

I've said I'm both a male right activist and a female right activist. It seems you can not accept what I've actually said. If you want to discuss issues like an adult then by all means go ahead. Otherwise, see ya in a southwest Kia.

You make the same random prattlings about how men get raped too followed by an entirely unrelated rant about suicide. I read wrote. Your argument was essentially if 1 then a ergo .9999999....

... Ok, I derailed the thread which I should not have done. But nothing I said was sexist.

1) that has no relevance to the issue of rape culture. 2) your argument really doesn't follow.

That's got nothing to do with rape culture one way or another. I never said male's committing suicide means rape culture doesn't exist, did I?

 

[Zack]

That's got nothing to do with rape culture one way or another. I never said male's committing suicide means rape culture doesn't exist, did I?

Why the hell did you bring it up in the first place? Are you on a crusade to spread awareness about the manly issue of suicide by arbitrarily and frequently referencing it?

 

[caketastydelish]

This is literally the only thread where I've brought it up. Granted, I shouldn't have done it but when you all deny that when predominately male suicides is a male issue, you're sort of proving my point.

 

[Zack]

This is literally the only thread where I've brought it up.

Exactly, that was my point. Since you aren't crusading about this issue in other places, why arbitrarily bring it up here?

 

[Crezth]

I'm not suggesting that men are marginalized, I posted that there are issues that effect men which are ignored. Not all men are white or live in middle American suburbia. I don't for one.

Yes, that's true, and I apologize for being so hasty (and, hell, West-centric while I'm at it). But when we are saying that male issues are not paid enough attention - well, that's in comparison to what? Basically what I'm asking is if the male issues aren't getting enough attention, and given that they're ruling the roost, what in bloody hell is?

I think the problems facing women are more often discussed in the media.

Right, and I have to call you on this, because it's not evident at all. I understand why people might think that (persecution complex and so on), but it's just not true. On a worldwide scale, surely there is the matter of conscription that mustn't be ignored - but let's not forget the massive amounts of control and violence women are subjected to all across the globe, starting with genital mutilation and ending with hijabs. These are all but ignored when it comes to policy, no matter how much fuss is made. Surely the same applies to male conscription but I think the scales are at least balanced here in terms of neglect for issues that require earnest attention.

As for the USA, our media is vastly tilted in the direction of males and male values - it is androcentric. All the most popular movies star male main characters and enshrine male values such as strength and charisma and TV commercials are rife with reminders to get prostate exams and to invest in "natural male enhancement." There is no shortage of commercials and media that cater to women, don't get me wrong, but I think if you're going to go tit for tat between the two you find it breaks even at least. And even if women's issues did get a disproportionate representation, that'd be acceptable, indeed, desirable because as it stands women sort of need that recognition in order to cross the hurdles that society has presented for them.

The media coverage of this crime is just one major example. A lot of talk about the males, who are criminals (keep in mind); comparatively little talk about the victim, who is female, and by all means ought to be the focus of this affair. Instead we are treated to sob-stories about how these young mens' life is ruined. That's OK, I mean there's nothing wrong with feeling empathy for your fellow man - but at what expense? Where is the empathy for this young woman who was sexually assaulted and then bullied and tormented by her peers, teachers, and neighbors? That's the problem here.

 

[caketastydelish]

Neither me nor NovaKart have advocated that rapists deserve empathy.

 

[Traitorfish]

Here's a problem.

Men commit suicide more often than women. A majority of suicides are men. That is not controversial.

But that does not in itself indicate that suicide effects men to a correspondingly disproportionate degree. All it indicates is that more suicides (or attempted suicides) involve men. It could in principle be the case that suicidal thoughts effect more women, and that the majority of people affected by suicidal thoughts are women, but they are for whatever reason less likely to succumb to those thoughts.

Presuming that when we say something is a "men's issue" or a "women's issue", we mean that it effects living men or women, then it would have to be demonstrated that suicide effects either of those genders to a significantly disproportionate extent, not simply that it kills them, and that isn't something that we have any solid reason to believe is the case.


(All this, of course, assumes that statistical prevalence is enough to gender an issue, of which I'm quite sceptical. But it's sufficient to point out that even accepting this premise, CTD is drawing spurious conclusions.)

 

[Crezth]

Empathy isn't something someone deserves. It's something that you feel.

edit: And anyway, that's besides the point. I'm not saying you guys are even rape-apologists. I'm just saying you need to prioritize your outrage better.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

"And lives already had been destroyed".

Only reference to the victim in that clip.

Yeah, I'd be crying and feeling sorry too if I faced time in jail and a tarnished reputation. How sorry would they've been if they'd got away with it I wonder?

 

[caketastydelish]

Here's a problem.

Men commit suicide more often than women. A majority of suicides are men. That is not controversial.

But that does not in itself indicate that suicide effects men to a correspondingly disproportionate degree. All it indicates is that more suicides (or attempted suicides) involve men. It could in principle be the case that suicidal thoughts effect more women, and that the majority of people affected by suicidal thoughts are women, but they are for whatever reason less likely to succumb to those thoughts.

Presuming that when we say something is a "men's issue" or a "women's issue", we mean that it effects living men or women, then it would have to be demonstrated that suicide effects either of those genders to a significantly disproportionate extent, not simply that it kills them, and that isn't something that we have any solid reason to believe is the case.


(All this, of course, assumes that statistical prevalence is enough to gender an issue, of which I'm quite sceptical. But it's sufficient to point out that even accepting this premise, CTD is drawing spurious conclusions.)

First of all, I provided evidence that men are committing suicide more often. It's like this:

a) for biological reasons, women get raped more frequently than men.
b) because it's mostly women that get raped, rape is a women's issue.
c) preventing the rape of women makes the world a better place.

or...

a) suicide is a predominately mens issue (and I've given evidence for this, which you continue to ignore)
b) because it's mostly men that commit suicide, it's mostly a mens issue
c) preventing the suicide of men would make the world a better place.

Empathy isn't something someone deserves. It's something that you feel.

edit: And anyway, that's besides the point. I'm not saying you guys are even rape-apologists. I'm just saying you need to prioritize your outrage better.

I never said that there weren't women's issues, or even that men and women have the same number of issues, with 'issues' meaning problem (hint: women have much more)

only that there are also a few mens issues which get ignored.

------

Finally: Yes, fer christs sake, the payroll gap is a problem and a women's issue. No one's denying that. Neither me nor Novakart are denying that their are womens issues. In fact, there's more womens issues than mens issues. Overall, men are better off. That said, that doesn't mean there aren't just a few areas where it's the other way around.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

Aren't you ignoring attempted suicide?

(Don't know if this has been brought up, backtracked only a page or so)

 

[NovaKart]

Yes, that's true, and I apologize for being so hasty (and, hell, West-centric while I'm at it). But when we are saying that male issues are not paid enough attention - well, that's in comparison to what? Basically what I'm asking is if the male issues aren't getting enough attention, and given that they're ruling the roost, what in bloody hell is?



Right, and I have to call you on this, because it's not evident at all. I understand why people might think that (persecution complex and so on), but it's just not true. On a worldwide scale, surely there is the matter of conscription that mustn't be ignored - but let's not forget the massive amounts of control and violence women are subjected to all across the globe, starting with genital mutilation and ending with hijabs. These are all but ignored when it comes to policy, no matter how much fuss is made. Surely the same applies to male conscription but I think the scales are at least balanced here in terms of neglect for issues that require earnest attention.

As for the USA, our media is vastly tilted in the direction of males and male values - it is androcentric. All the most popular movies star male main characters and enshrine male values such as strength and charisma and TV commercials are rife with reminders to get prostate exams and to invest in "natural male enhancement." There is no shortage of commercials and media that cater to women, don't get me wrong, but I think if you're going to go tit for tat between the two you find it breaks even at least. And even if women's issues did get a disproportionate representation, that'd be acceptable, indeed, desirable because as it stands women sort of need that recognition in order to cross the hurdles that society has presented for them.

The media coverage of this crime is just one major example. A lot of talk about the males, who are criminals (keep in mind); comparatively little talk about the victim, who is female, and by all means ought to be the focus of this affair. Instead we are treated to sob-stories about how these young mens' life is ruined. That's OK, I mean there's nothing wrong with feeling empathy for your fellow man - but at what expense? Where is the empathy for this young woman who was sexually assaulted and then bullied and tormented by her peers, teachers, and neighbors? That's the problem here.

Some people have this perception that because men are over-represented politically that men rule collectively which is simply not true.

It seems like the two of us are looking at different issues then. You mention policy, which if I'm understanding you right (maybe I'm not), you think women's issues have little importance in foreign policy/politics. This is certainly true but also for human rights in general, not just women's rights. The US and other countries will make an issue about human rights but normally overlook that when it's convenient. It's not just about women's rights.

But if we look at issues like FGM and purdah (hijab, burqa) these issues are very very well known. How often do we hear about abuse of conscripts in Turkey or Russia? That's what I'm talking about. Gender specific issues. The Western world has an obsession with the veil and you could arguably say from a human interest, person on the street perspective, we know more about Middle Eastern women than men.

When we look at the US, you're also talking about something very different. What I am referring to is gender specific issues, not advertising, movie stars, etc. Problems that face average men and women. I have yet to see reminders about prostate exams but I'll take your word for it, I imagine it's only something very recent. I see a vast amount of coverage on women's issues every day with online publications and not even 10% to issues that specifically affect men. When we see that according to many experts women are outperforming men academically and among young urban professionals, one starts to question the dogma that women are significantly handicapped in 21st century first world society. It's not to say that they don't have problems and that they should be ignored but that we should start at least giving some focus to male specific issues which is society's huge blind spot.

Coverage on this issue, it's interesting because there's been a big media backlash over these comments on CNN, so obviously a lot of people DO have a problem with how they perceive that it is covered. Could this focus on the perpetrators be because people don't want to identify the victim but they can show the criminal's face and name as often as they want?

 

[caketastydelish]

The end result of a successful suicide attempt and a failed suicide attempt are quite different, wouldn't you say?

 

[Traitorfish]

First of all, I provided evidence that men are committing suicide more often.

No, I got that. I acknowledge it explicitly in the second sentence.

What I'm saying is that the fact more men commit suicide is no indication that suicidal thoughts affect men to a correspondingly disproportionate degree. Unless we're understanding suicide in absurdly narrow terms as the act of suicide, and not the process leading to it, then to declare a "men's issue" would mean demonstrating that more men are affected by suicidal thoughts, which you have not.

Read what you reply to, or don't bother.

 

[caketastydelish]

Back on topic: This proves that CNN is only a shade better than Fox. I love it when conservatives say CNN has a 'liberal' bias, just because its a little to the left of Fox News.

 

[Farm Boy]

Where is the empathy for this young woman who was sexually assaulted and then bullied and tormented by her peers, teachers, and neighbors? That's the problem here.

Not to disagree with you here, because I'm not - but part of the explanation in the difference in coverage is probably linked to the fact that the news media is inhibited from reporting on the identities and stories of sexual assault victims(without explicit consent) whereas the perpetrators are far more "fair game."

Neither me nor NovaKart have advocated that rapists deserve empathy.

You're right. That was me.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

The end result of a successful suicide attempt and a failed suicide attempt are quite different, wouldn't you say?

Oh snarky! I think I can do snarky.

No, that didn't occur to me at all. Why thank you for pointing that illusive fact out to me.

*looks left* "Hey! Is that an exit?"