Pope Francis declares Evolution and Big Bang theory are right

[Arakhor]

I'm in an evolution thread and I'm siding with Classical. Well, there's a sentence I never expected to use.

Savour the moment. It doesn't matter how often you disagree with someone - chances are that you will always agree with them on at least one thing!

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

I just reread his post and realised I don't agree

He calls it cruel, I'd call it indifferent.

 

[Borachio]

If god used evolution, then he is a cruel god. Why? Because that means god used death as a natural part of life, but the Bible says differently. The Bible is clear that death is a result of sin and is punishment for disobedience to him.

I don't understand why Mr Dust agrees with this.

I can see he'd agree that evolution implies death, and death is a natural part of life.

But that's not what Mr Hero is stating, imo. He's clearly implying that evolution doesn't exist and hence death is not a natural part of life, since, I think he'd say, it's the result of sin (citing the Bible in support).

 

[Arakhor]

Well, if original sin is a thing and everybody is cursed to die because of being allegedly related to a mythical apple scrumper, then both could be right at once.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

Mr Dust agreed with the first 9 words, but abandoned ship during the why. Then he realised he didn't exactly agree with the first 9 words.

Well, it was a nice moment while it lasted.

 

[El_Machinae]

In fairness, he's calling the Pope's god cruel, which I think is accurate. Now, I've rarely seem a god crueler than the one Classical worships, but the Pope's variant is still cruel.

If the god is assumed away, the process becomes indifferent.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

Why could an indifferent God not create evolution?

 

[warpus]

Evolution is a cruel, extremely uncaring, viscous struggle for survival where all involved are always hungry, afraid for their lives or killed in utterly gutwrenching ways. If this was the result of a design, then the designer can't have a single caring molecule of emotion.

Maybe the plan and end result of his actions are more important than the steps it took to get there. He does work in mysterious ways after all, maybe the grand finale of evolution of life on the planet (and beyond?) is worth all the pain and suffering that's gone on since that first life form started looking for food.

edit: looks like I have missed a bunch of stuff that might have rendered my comments moot..

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

An all-powerful God wouldn't need to have these steps be the way they are. Unless it's indifferent, it could have made them less horrible. And I'm not talking about the pain of being injured or killed as the horrible thing, death has to happen, pain is an important feature for survival. I'm talking that some designs are so explicitly cruel, that it made sure the suffering would be more extreme than it needed to be.

 

[Old Hippy]

but it could still have been the most compassionate choice availible...

 

[Borachio]

Evolution is a cruel, extremely uncaring, vicious struggle for survival where all involved are always hungry, afraid for their lives or killed in utterly gutwrenching ways. If this was the result of a design, then the designer can't have a single caring molecule of emotion.

So then the choice becomes clear. Either God is good and created man according to the YEC principle. Which is clearly bonkers. Or It is devoid from morality and created life that follows evolution. Options only apply to an omni-everything God.

Laat option is that It had nothing to do with creation and is a result of some natural process itself.

I don't think this is generally true at all. Or at least it's a highly misleading picture.

If we just consider mammals: the herbivores are preyed on by the carnivores, this much is true. But that doesn't mean that herbivores spend all their lives being killed in gutwrenching ways else there wouldn't be any herbivores. It's an arms race between the predator and the prey. And often enough the predators don't have the best of it. There's a dynamic equilibrium established, with most (or at least a lot of them) animals reaching maturity: the adult herbivores are to all intents and purposes invulnerable unless they're injured, diseased or elderly. So the predators can only really live on the very young (which are poorly protected by inexperienced adults for example), or the diseased, injured or elderly adult prey. (Or maybe sometimes a predator just gets lucky from time to time and bags itself a nice big fresh juicy healthy specimen.)

Now, that, in a nutshell, is the mechanism of natural selection. (In a Borachiesque, typically incomplete, way.)

It may be uncaring, and amoral. But cruel it mainly isn't. Though it can be. And most animals don't live in a permanent state of fear. A lot of them seem to enjoy themselves a lot of the time, it seems to me.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

Yeah, that was more focused on dramatics than accuracy.

Google Emerald cockroach wasp to see what I mean. Surely a designer with some sense of good in it would not have designed that. Being all-powerful at that, so quite able to have done it differently.

 

[Borachio]

Indeed. I can't pretend that the world looks designed to me. It doesn't.

Just for a random example: why put the windpipe and oesophagus bang next to each in human beings so that they're most likely to choke? Put the wind hole on the top of the head, like with a dolphin, and the problem would be solved. And it would make swimming so much more fun.

 

[El_Machinae]

well, the pain only kicks in once the sentience evolved. You can have a robust ecology that's pain-free.

 

[classical_hero]

I don't understand why Mr Dust agrees with this.

I can see he'd agree that evolution implies death, and death is a natural part of life.

But that's not what Mr Hero is stating, imo. He's clearly implying that evolution doesn't exist and hence death is not a natural part of life, since, I think he'd say, it's the result of sin (citing the Bible in support).

Evolution states that death is natural, whereas the Bible says death isn't natural and it is punishment for sin. They are two opposite ideas. If God used evolution then what he says about death being punishment for sin is then obviously wrong, but that is the whole point of the Bible, because then why did Jesus come to earth if he was to conquer death, but why would he have to do that if death is natural?

 

[Zack]

Evolution states that death is natural, whereas the Bible says death isn't natural and it is punishment for sin.

What sin does an aborted fetus commit?

What sin did those caught in Hurricane Katrina commit?

What sin did Apollo Creed commit?

 

[classical_hero]

I just reread his post and realised I don't agree

He calls it cruel, I'd call it indifferent.

So you don't think the way some people die isn't cruel? What about those who die from cancer? I saw my mother die from breast cancer and if this is how God intended for people to live, then that is the only word I can consider on how God works if death is natural.

 

[gay_Aleks]

What sin does an aborted fetus commit?

What sin did those caught in Hurricane Katrina commit?

What sin did Apollo Creed commit?

For the most part, getting born in the crapsack world after 10000 years ago some woman ate the fruit that gave us knowledge and also it gave us the ability to be ashamed.

 

[classical_hero]

What sin does an aborted fetus commit?

What sin did those caught in Hurricane Katrina commit?

What sin did Apollo Creed commit?

While some people do die as a result of specific sins, we all die as a result of Adam bring sin into the world and death as a result.
Luke 13:1-5 There were present at that season some that told him of the Galilaeans, whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices.
2 And Jesus answering said unto them, Suppose ye that these Galilaeans were sinners above all the Galilaeans, because they suffered such things?
3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.
4 Or those eighteen, upon whom the tower in Siloam fell, and slew them, think ye that they were sinners above all men that dwelt in Jerusalem?
5 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

The simple fact of the matter is according to the Bible we die because of sin brought in by Adam. According to evolution death is natural.

 

[Arakhor]

Given that God apparently causes even his divine elect to age and die because of original sin, I’d have to challenge the idea that death is not part of his grand plan.