Possibilities to take your vassal's cities ?

[gfm]

But the problem is that conquering them entirely is often difficult because they'll cozy up with usually another powerful civ (who'll force you to declare peace or fight a bigger war). I suppose you could say "Screw it" and try to take out the one civ while holding off the other and then sue for peace, but that's often a roll of the dice I'm not willing to take. Then again, I freely admit to being weak on warfare (and the associated production/economy management during wartime).

I've been there before, and war is not my forte (even though I'm not the peaceful builder I once was), but I find the challenge entertaining. I also like the fact that a losing nation will try to suck up and offer itself to a larger power to avoid being completely destroyed.

To tell the truth, I often watch the diplomatic situation pretty carefully to avoid being trapped in such situations, even bribing other nations to go to war with someone else before I declare war myself. They're less likely to accept a vassal with an asterisk attached (that asterisk being war with ME !) if they're already at war with someone else.

 

[Solo4114]

You know, I've never thought of that! I'm gonna have to try that out some time!

 

[gfm]

You know, I've never thought of that! I'm gonna have to try that out some time!

Well I often bribe warmongering leaders into warring with a third party when I plan a war myself because it will :

• prevent my target to bribe the warmonger into a war with me
• prevent capitulation/voluntary vassalage of my target to the warmonger
• sour relations beetween the warmonger and the target I designated
• free me of having military units on my borders
• slow down the general tech pace (mine and my target will be slowed, might as well slow the tech pace of 2 other AIs)

From this bribery will grow hatred on all sides, which might lead to other wars being fought beetween the warmonger and his/her enemies, further slowing the tech pace. That's great because I will only declare when I have a technologically superior military, and I intend to preserve this advantage by slowing the tech rate of my rivals.

Of course, warmongering leaders :

• accept to declare war on a third party more readily than others
• often end up technologically backwards, allowing you to bribe them with your tech lead

 

[gfm]

One other thing on vassals : on high difficulties (Emperor and higher), the AIs get so many bonii that keeping them as vassals with smallish empires actually turns them into worthy trading partners.

I dunno myself since I'm a Monarch player but I remember following Deity games where the player would capitulate his targets rather than eliminate them. Of course the diplomatic situation allowed him to have vassals.

 

[UncleJJ]

They're still useful though, because:

1. They speed up dom/conquest
2. They will suck in AI attacks, in territory where YOU have the mobility/first attack advantage, and will possibly even destroy a few enemy units.
3. You can airlift to them although I rarely do so.
4. They can chain capitulations if they border future targets correctly.
5. They vote for you unless they're eligible.
6. If you have corps and FM they let you manage foreign land (albeit poorly, but it still won't be land used against you) without incurring mass colony expense.

I like having vassals. They can be awkward to handle and cause problems diplomatically and culturally but they can also be major assets in the right circumstances. Here are a few more good things that can come from them.

7. Each vassal gives you +1 happy in all your cities
8. You get a "foreign trade route" for each vassal city even when in Mercantilism (a small bonus but note this starts at 0, if you were at war with them, then grows at about 3% per turn until it reaches the full 150% foreign trade bonus)
9. If you gift them out of date units they can upgrade them cheaply
10. If you gift them a newly captured city, they get 2 garrison units, then drop off a few old units in that city, now you don't have to defend that city or manage it.
11. Fighting inside your vassal's culture against a third party does not give you WW or only much reduced amounts depending on tile %. Destroying your enemy's SoD on a vassal's territory can be the easiest and nearly risk free way to do it. It is the ideal place to fight a major war. You get full movement speed and healing rates while the enemy troops are slowed and have reduced healing. If a city or two is lost you can recapture and the vassal will give you a diplomatic bonus when you gift it back.

 

[Gwynnja]

Well I often bribe warmongering leaders into warring with a third party when I plan a war myself because it will :

• prevent my target to bribe the warmonger into a war with me
• prevent capitulation/voluntary vassalage of my target to the warmonger
• sour relations beetween the warmonger and the target I designated
• free me of having military units on my borders
• slow down the general tech pace (mine and my target will be slowed, might as well slow the tech pace of 2 other AIs)

From this bribery will grow hatred on all sides, which might lead to other wars being fought beetween the warmonger and his/her enemies, further slowing the tech pace. That's great because I will only declare when I have a technologically superior military, and I intend to preserve this advantage by slowing the tech rate of my rivals.

Of course, warmongering leaders :

• accept to declare war on a third party more readily than others
• often end up technologically backwards, allowing you to bribe them with your tech lead

The only problem with this is that A. Warmongers are more difficult to please and B. the price of bribing them into war is steep. If you can manage to get two warmongers to hate each other without ever really getting the upper hand it's certainly worth the price.

 

[carl corey]

7. Each vassal gives you +1 happy in all your cities

Of course there's the "want to join our motherland" unhappiness to go with it.

 

[UncleJJ]

Of course there's the "want to join our motherland" unhappiness to go with it.

Not in my capital or other big cities where it counts A vigorous application of the in the vassal's old cities can sort out motherland problems (which are size related). A bigger problem can be the vassal increasing his culture and driving the cities into revolt without a substantial garrison, but that's another story ...

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Not in my capital or other big cities where it counts A vigorous application of the in the vassal's old cities can sort out motherland problems (which are size related). A bigger problem can be the vassal increasing his culture and driving the cities into revolt without a substantial garrison, but that's another story ...

The #1 problem with vassals that remains in Civ IV is that the system that determines capitulation is EXTREMELY, UNBELIEVABLE convoluted.

- Having your own vassals will reduce the odds of further capitulations if they're weak
- Unless they border your target with a sufficient # of border tiles
- You can have 3x your target power and 20-1 war success, but if they + their vassal's power (times a 1.4 multiplier) > average power - "we're doing fine on our own". Like hell you are, die.
- But, your own vassals' power don't count as part of your own, AND it drags down the average power. It's possible to WB delete YOUR vassal and have that ALLOW capitulation without doing anything else
- However, if you have less than 2x their power, it is still easy to get capitulation if they are below the average power. If they are bordering another civ they're warring with, even moreso.

In other words, this is one of the mechanics in the game MOST in need of an overhaul. They're useful but the underlying mechanic is a garbage joke.