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Possible New Techs

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Fury Road Modpack' started by Jabie, Jul 9, 2008.

  1. Jabie

    Jabie Wanted in Monte Carlo...

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    Oral History
    * Can adjust Culture Slider
    * Allows Story Circle (Monument; think of a communal campfire where people gather to discuss the old days)

    Ceremonies
    * Requires Oral History.
    * First to dicover founds religion.
    * Allows Inquisitor Unit (This unit is almost essential for a Vision Victory)
    * Allows Wheel of Deals National Wonder (See Mad Max 3, acts as Forbidden Palace)

    Constitution should require Ceremonies and Diplomacy as well as Education. It should also enable New World Order (Apostolic Palace) for the Diplomatic Win.
     
  2. Polycrates

    Polycrates Emperor

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    Military Discipline:
    Allows barracks, some sort of infantry unit
    enables city raider, city garrison promos?

    The evolution from bands of ragtag survivor militias to an actual structured military with chain-of-command and proper discipline would be a pretty big one, probably worthy of a tech (early-midgame?)
     
  3. davidlallen

    davidlallen Deity

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    Let us make this thread broader.

    I want to spread out the tech tree. Originally I had a strange goal, which was to fit the tech tree on one page. Version 0.6 is the first time the tech tree has needed the scrollbar. Polycrates has commented in the infantry thread that the tech tree seems kind of jammed together. In retrospect, I agree; in vanilla, each tech gives one or two new things to build, while most of mine give four or five. Also, when I autoplay games, the AI maxes out the tech tree by turn 300 or so, there is nothing to aim at but the huge "Future Tech" which is just there to prevent runouts.

    So, I don't feel a strong need to add more units or buildings; but I'd like to spread things out more. As a side effect, the cumulative cost of the tree will increase. How should we do it?

    Note, in version 0.7 I have added back most of the vanilla civics. In the current release, the civics grid is 3x3, in vanilla it is 5x5. The version 0.7 grid is 5x4, all of the vanilla civics are there except the religion column. So there are more things to fit in.
     
  4. Randomness

    Randomness ...

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    I think it would be usefull if in the later game you could research hydroponics. This would allow sea farming to be preformed by worker boats, thus making coast plots more profitable (as they completely suck right now).
     
  5. arkham4269

    arkham4269 Court Writer - Orbis Mod

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    NOTE! This is a cross-post as I posted it in a different forum as well.

    First off, about the tech tree, I think the way to expand it is to have it in conjunction with the concept they use in Final Frontier of having a 'theme' for your tech. So if your civ is on the coast, you might switch to "Maritime" and that would unlock certain techs. I don't know if there is a way to make a tech cheaper by a flag, but if so, then Maritime civs could research certain techs more quickly at the expense of others. I know in Civ III, they used to do this.

    I think it would make each Civ tend to go their own way, sort of like in Alpha Centauri (which this mod is sort of like in a way since you have a high tech people having to start very low level). Some examples of these themes might be:
    * Recovery: We had high tech and damnit we'll have it again! Civ's using this would focus on getting old tech working again so they'd have fewer weapons but more powerful ones. They might also have more of a bunker mentality, fewer cities, but bigger ones.
    * Downshift: This could be for Civ's without a lot of resources at their disposal except for maybe people so they push to use older techs like gunpowder or steam. This theme is useful if you access to sulfur and coal but maybe no oil.
    * Maritime: As mentioned above, Civ's using this would focus on ships, have access to whaling boats and perhaps 'super fisheries' in the sense that the normal work boat gets only a token amount of fish whereas the maritime Civ's work boat creates a fishery that really cranks out the food. Plus they might also have access to the River Port that some mods have. They'd get increased commerce.
    * Luddite: Technology brought us ruin. These folks would want to return to a simple life. Sure guys in jeeps with machine guns are bad ass, but up against LOTS of guys with crossbows is a bad thing. Perhaps also allow this theme to have the mobile yurts the one Mongol scenario had to enable them to be semi-nomadic. Either that or they get a lot less penalty for spreading out.
    * Mad Scientist: Not sure how high-tech the planet was before, but perhaps they are going to focus on mutations and other bio-secrets that might have been unlocked prior to the war. You could have clones, mutates and 'necrotroops' (basically robocops) plus bio-weapons or just good old fashion chemical weapons.
    * Gaian: Theme that is focused on terraforming and using fixing the planet. Similar to the Gaians in Alpha Centauri, perhaps they could use, breed many of the new mutations. Plus, who wouldn't want to have cavalry using giant spiders! =)~ Plus this theme would go for more wind-farms for electricity and bio-diesel.

    Anyway, if there is a way, I think certain techs should be available only after certain key ones are made and you have to sort of stick with it. Another thing about having the theme would be that would slow things down since trading techs outside a theme would be pointless since it's not just the knowledge but the infrastructure. Won't do me much good to get a tech for better work boats since I don't have the ancillary tech that allows for shipyards.

    I mean if you have scant resources, you can't do everything so you have to sort of pick a path and ride it to the end or pay the price for starting over and I think that would make the Civ's all a little bit more different.
    arkham4269 is online now Report Post Edit/Delete Message
     
  6. davidlallen

    davidlallen Deity

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    I haven't played Final Frontier enough to really see how the tech tree works, but I had not noticed themes there yet. That mod is where I got the idea about advocates and visions, but that doesn't actually effect research.

    I don't think there's a way to change the cost or give a research bonus for certain techs, at least not without changing the guts of the SDK.

    However, I think part of the effect you want would come naturally with a tech tree that had "deeper branches". If you have to put all your research points into developing down one branch, say for maritime units, then you just wouldn't have time to develop down another branch, say for terraforming. In the Fury Road tech tree, there are two key branches, for "government" based stuff and "military" based stuff. If you aim for education, you probably fall behind on heavy weapons.

    I think most of your themes would make good backgrounds for the LH, which we are starting to discuss on the leaderhead reduction thread.
     
  7. arkham4269

    arkham4269 Court Writer - Orbis Mod

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    Neither have I, yet after loading up a game, they break the civics down to Military, Government, Labor and Economy. The Military is sort of the 'theme' I was talking about. If you have "light ship doctrine" you get a price break on making those class of ships. If you have 'pacifism' you get a penalty for building ships, but get more happiness and more hammers since you don't have the military infrastructure to support.

    I was thinking that beyond dealing with the tech tree, you could do something similar. "Luddites" would get a cost break on low-tech units and maybe would get more 'free' so they could afford to have hordes of crossbowmen and cavalry whereas "Maritime" might allow for cheaper ships and ship related buildings.

    Plus, in a sense, you could do what certain religions do in the Fall From Heaven mod, in that certain civics allow civic only units & buildings. Maybe Luddites would get more 'advanced' low tech units as well as stables and bowyers and 'Downshift' would have access to more gunpowder and/or steam units and perhaps coal plants. Any Civ who adopted these civics would have access to these units so they aren't Civ specific. In a way, you could combine this with Vision. I mean the concept behind "Luddite" being technology is bad, we need to return to our roots is a Vision. (Which also brings up you need inquisitors because many Visions would not take kindly to counter-Visions) If you don't want to tie them to Vision, could you not make these themes corporations? That way you can have democratic Luddites or Plutocratic Luddites.

    The only question I have is whether or not you can tie techs to these choices. That way you might have certain techs that are only available to you if you have the right civic.
     
  8. davidlallen

    davidlallen Deity

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    I don't think you can remove techs or change their cost easily. But, suppose a unit requires a certain tech and a certain civic, and that tech doesn't do anything else useful. Then there would be no reason to research that tech unless you had that civic.

    Someday I will have to start playing FFH, but it appears to have a high startup time. In order to play effectively I should read about all the different cultures, civics, spell effects, etc.
     
  9. arkham4269

    arkham4269 Court Writer - Orbis Mod

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    Yes you must! ;) For the most part, I only play Rise of Mankind and FFH. In fact, I get so used to being able to terraform via magic and having certain landmarks that it's a bit of a shock to go back to 'normal' Civ.

    Not sure what you mean by huge start up time, but it WILL eat up a lot of your time playing it. However, I think it would be helpful since they've done a lot of interesting things in that mod that I would not have thought possible.
     
  10. westamastaflash

    westamastaflash Lord Commander

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    Kael has written some fantastic resources on modding as well :)
     
  11. Jabie

    Jabie Wanted in Monte Carlo...

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    Go start a game of FfH now, you'll thank me for it later! Do not worry about reading the background, you'll pick that up as you go. Play the Grigori as they're a good tribe to start with as they get a cool hero unit and you don't have to worry about religions. Play on Settler and try to destroy all the evil nations and vassalise the good ones.
     
  12. davidlallen

    davidlallen Deity

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    Thanks for the encouragement, I already have two huge time sinks: *coding* Fury Road and *playing* Fury Road. Someday when Fury Road gets ""done"" then I will pick up FFH.
     
  13. arkham4269

    arkham4269 Court Writer - Orbis Mod

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    Well you might want to check it out simply to see what you can swipe, especially art wise as many of the monsters would work as mutations. In fact, that one barbarian unit, (Deathstalker?) looks to me like a modified 'blooded werewolf".
     
  14. davidlallen

    davidlallen Deity

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    Believe me, I have already scanned all the mods for artwork. Downloading and bringing up the civilopedia doesn't take much time. You are right, the deathclaw is a slightly modified FFH werewolf. Also the giant spider is a reskin of the spider unit from FFH, although I have lost track of which exact artist did the reskin. Both are listed in the credits.

    Are there specific FFH monsters I may have missed, that I should add?
     
  15. Sonereal

    Sonereal ♫We got the guillotine♫ Supporter

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    I think that certain visions allow certain civics. For instance, a Democracy Vision won't let you run Depostism or Police State, but Plutocracy could.

    The zombie unit from Necro Cristi could maybe pass off as a "mutant" barbarian unit from the Fallout.
     
  16. davidlallen

    davidlallen Deity

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    There is a much longer debate about civics and visions in this thread. The short answer is, my choice of real world names for the visions was a poor one, because I am actually trying to model something else. In the next version 0.8, I have used more generic names for the visions.

    Regarding mutants, I do love seZereth's recent art for those. In the Fallout games, there is a sub-race of Ghouls that could use this artwork. I would start them with rad-immune. That is something I may do in a future version. However, technically both the deathclaw and ghoul are intelligent, and putting them in as "animals" may be considered a little insulting :)
     
  17. orlanth

    orlanth Storm God. Yarr!

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    Very cool mod so far! Definitely the first of its kind that I'm aware of. :goodjob:

    Here's my attempt to begin spreading out the tech tree, starting with the political economy branch (currently Administration). I agree a less dense tree should make for a more sustainable game; and also be more in keeping with the premise of working to emerge very gradually from a starting point of extreme backwardness/anarchism..

    :spear:


    Cooperation 80:science:
    can build Watchtower
    can train Worker


    leads to:
    Barter 240:science:
    +1 trade routes per city
    enables Open Borders

    Common Law 240:science:
    enables Bureaucracy
    can build City Hall


    Barter leads to:
    Currency 500:science:
    enables Gold Trading in diplomacy
    can build Marketplace

    Contracts (with Common Law) 540:science:
    can construct Thunderbowl
    can construct Bust a Deal, Face the Wheel
    enables Defensive Pacts


    Common Law leads to: 520:science:
    Administration
    enables Nationhood
    can construct Capitol
    can train Spy
    can adjust Safety rate

    Feudalism 450:science:
    as current, plus Allows Vassalization


    Contracts leads to:
    Division of Labor (with Agriculture) 1000:science:
    +1:hammers: from Town
    +1:commerce: from Salvage Center
    enables Caste System

    Usury (with Currency) 1300:science:
    +1 trade routes per city
    enables Free Market
    first to discover receives a Great Merchant
    can build Wealth


    Administration leads to:
    Civic Projects (with Journeyman Tradesmen) 1000:science:
    enables State Property
    can construct School
    can construct Sewage Plant


    Civic Projects leads to:
    Education (with High School Science) 1300:science:
    +1 :science: from School
    enables Representation
    first to discover receives a Great Scientist
    can build Research
    |
    V
    Constitution
    as current
     
  18. orlanth

    orlanth Storm God. Yarr!

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    Hunting and Gathering 130:science:
    can build Camp, Plantation, Fishing Boats
    can train Work Boat
    can work water tiles
    enables Woodsman promotion
    |
    V
    Domestication 400:science:
    can build Pasture
    can train Cavalry
    |
    V
    Animal Wrangling (with First Aid and Self Defense) 650:science:
    enables Subdue Animal promotion (from FfH?)
    can train Wrangler (foot unit with 8:attack:, +50% strength vs animals, starts with Subdue Animal)



    Subsistence Farming 130:science:
    can build Farm
    can remove Forest
    |
    V
    Slash and Burn 240:science:
    can build Farms without Irrigation
    can remove Jungle
    +10 :hammers: from removing Forest or Jungle
    |
    V
    Agriculture (with Domestication) 600:science:
    Farms spread Irrigation
    +1 :food: from Farms with access to Phosphates (map resource)
    can construct Granary
    |
    V
    Fermentation (with Machinery) 940:science:
    enables Morale
    can construct Still (=Brewery from FfH)
    |
    V
    Biofuels (with Refining) 1600:science:
    enables Less Fuel I
    can build Bioreactor (World Wonder, 750:hammers: : Requires Still. +50%:hammers:,-2:food: in city. +3 Great Engineer. Provides Ethanol, +1:hammers:)


    Agriculture also allows:
    Hydroponics (with Homebrew Computers) 1100:science:
    can construct Hydroponic Tanks (250:hammers:, gives +2 :food: in city)
     
  19. davidlallen

    davidlallen Deity

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    These look like pretty good ideas. I don't have much spare time until Monday, but if you have some thoughts for the military part of the tree too, that would be great!
     
  20. orlanth

    orlanth Storm God. Yarr!

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    This should space weaponry out a bit:


    Self Defense
    can train Crossbowman
    can construct Barracks
    enables City Garrison
    |
    V
    Small Arms
    reveals Munitions
    enables Weapon Mount
    can train Guardian (with Citizen Militia)
    can train Jeep (with Cracking)
    |
    V
    Automatic Weapons (with Salvaging)
    as current
    |
    V
    Heavy Weapons (with Homebrew Electronics)
    as current


    Self Defense also leads to:
    Citizen Militia (with Cooperation)
    enables Slavery
    enables Drill
    can train Guardian (with Small Arms)
     

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