Post HA rush recovery

[Jellybug]

Hello all,

I'm playing as Wang Kon at the moment, and I find myself at a crossroads. Settings are Immortal/Normal/NHNE, map is pangaea. I'm running BUG mod.

Spoiler Start :

Settled in place, went Ag-BW-AH (food poor start, no hunting means slow AH, and it's not worth it for a hill sheep). Farmed a flood plains first. Settler at 3.

Spoiler Attack soon 1200BC :

I found horse and had an army ready at about 1200BC. Went in with 8 or 9 HA against Ethiopia to the south. Captured his capital around 750BC and took peace for alphabet. Redeclared after 10 turns, just as he was moving out to settle again, wiped his last two cities and four workers in the next two turns.

Spoiler Current State 225BC :

Here are my initial three:


And here is the conquered territory, mid recovery:


I took peace for alpha after I took Ethiopian capital, when Zara was down to 2 cities. Then after the redeclaration, in the turn delay before taking his last city, Shaka declared on me, and he was probably bribed (how to tell, look at the techs he can research?) He hasn't shown any units, but should I build defenses in preparation, or go all-in on recovery? Shaka is far to the east, and my stack of HA's is ready in the south, but he may very well go for my northeast where I am exposed but have a a good production spot. I think I will build three axes there and whip walls if necessary.

It's also possible that I should have wiped Ethiopia completely, alphabet be damned, then continued the war onto Isabella while I could.

This is the point where I struggle the most on Immortal vs. Emp. I think the wiping of Ethiopia was smoother than I've ever done it. I finally managed to hit before 1000BC, which I'd never done before (so thank you to all who helped me on my previous HA thread). On emp there is no doubt I win from here, probably engineering on route to steel but maybe cuirs. I just need a prod in the right direction here on Imm, as this is a pivotal time. I think I tech to code of laws, trade it for monarchy, currency and hopefully calendar. Then mace/Hwacha/Treb war against Isabella or Huayna? Don't think I'll have the oomph to hit cuirs, but have enough of a recovering base to hit engineering and steel in time to take out Isa and win from there. Or maybe just go with Swords/catapults, which might be needed against Shaka anyway.

Any tips you have, I much appreciate.

 

[Snowbird]

Capturing 4 cities should not take 1 thousand years...

Going from 1200BC - I would attack HC, small, builds some UU instead of archers... for that you have enough units in the save. (I would probably do lots of 1 pop whips outside of capitol - otherwise these cities are too slow to produce anything - some chopped granaries might have been nice for that - but too late in the save)

Early city capture -- less resistance, earlier money from destroyed buildings. 925BC HC has one city left from your save. I would use capture gold to get writing and then turn around, maybe do some damage against Ethiopia... That is especially true. since there are 0 stables and just racks in cap. I mean, ideally I would prefer some C2 HA out of gate to have at least some odds against fortified archers. (the better winning odds, the less chance of HA dying without damaging archer).

FP farms in cap... what does that +2 food does for you actually? Same for mining with all wood standing. Roading S/Se of cap... I mean you do understand how river crossing and roads work, right?.. FP road and gold road do like nothing (I think resource would be connected anyway).

So in general, better worker management, better road placement, faster cation. HA are about fast action this not an axe rush.

 

[Gumbolt]

You have such a great UU here. A little patience and a later attack with an over powered UU on Incan's would of resulted in a much better captured capital. That or an axe rush early on.

Leaving the Incans to wonder spam really pays off as the wonder list here shows. They have GLH/shrine and other wonders here. Size 11 capital so likely some good food too.

Right now your at war with Shaka and you have upset the Spanish. You need to find Shaka's stack before he finds you? Did Zara bribe him into the war? Seems unlikely he would be at war before he has hit your borders. Diplomacy is key this game. Right now the remaining AI do not like you. Impi are a PITA. Meaning you sit behind a wall or attack his stack when it reaches you. 225bc he could have a reasonable sized stack. Of course right now should be a recovery time for your empire. Can't do that now.

You really need to connect to Spanish trade network here. Gifting resources can get you +2 diplomacy over time. Switching religions can be a dangerous game on civ 4 unless you have a plan.

Usually you might run scientists and use libraries to recover science. Not sure you have the food to whip these.

 

[Henrik75]

I took a quick look at the 1200BC save, I would probably change a few things, such as move pyongyang closer to the capital, and possibly settle a fourth city in the marked spot to help work cottages. I would also have those river tiles already cottaged to help develop your economy a little more earlier. Having this kind of setup might give you a better situation later on after the war when you have towns/villages to work in the capital.

Also I would do a construction rush here rather than horse archer, because you have that strong unique unit and most of your cities seem pretty undeveloped to really make an effective horse archer rush. I might give this game a quick try myself and see where I end up.

 

[Gumbolt]

Having had a quick play with your 1200bc save you really attacked the wrong ai here. Incan capital on your doorstep vs a long slog to reach Aksum. Always take the simple wins. 7 or so HA did the job on his capital.

Got backstabbed by Zara but hardly an issue. Such great land to your east with food.

A slower attack might of got you more buildings.

I wonder if a construction Oracle might of worked here. Long shot but you had loads of good commerce tiles here.

Nice job on getting HA up early.

 

[Jellybug]

Always take the simple wins.

I've heard football coaches tell their quarterbacks this many times. I will remember it.

Your notes on worker management are very important. I am developing foresight, but it's lacking a bit (q.v the roads, which did slow down my reinforcements). I farmed the FP's because I thought the start lacked food. I did one first, and the other a bit later. How would I play the opening if not farming the FP (I only went AH because I got gold hooked up and found bronze, was going to mine the sheep until they popped). One question: Is this the appropriate amount of workers? I thought I could use one more, maybe.

Okay, making progress, putting together a viable stack to go get em, just picked the wrong guy and maybe wrong strat. If 1000BC is a decent target for attacking with HA's, what's a decent target date for a construction wipe?

 

[Henrik75]

Just tried the map, construction rush took out Zara pretty easy, attacking Huanya would have worked too. Being boxed in a corner with 3 cities on immortal is pretty crazy, can hardly believe it. Imagine how bad deity would be! Zara in your face at 2000BC. I had a pretty successful economy after eliminating Zara, and left him one stupid island city and got some key techs from him. I'll upload and post my pov soon.

Refering to the topic, getting currency with the gold I took from taking his cities helped out a lot with the going bankrupt thing, as well as working the gold and cottages as early as possible.

EDIT: Upload of my attempt rush on zara. Didn't quite get as good date as you but was able to develop my cities and tech a bit more.

 

[Gumbolt]

I think HA here actually does work best for speed. Without axes it would be hard to beat a 1000bc rush. Most AI have no metal by then.

I think Oracle construction is easily possible. Downside is you need axes and his UU to take cities so your looking at at 12-13 strong stack moving 1mp. If the AI has hill cities with archers it's not so easy going.

I think issue with construction is time to get a decent stack together. Albeit you have plenty of forest to chop. HA with the UU and axes later would be good fun.

Farming those flood plains was a good thing to help your capital grow. This is a really slow but strong hammer/commerce start.

Henrik seems to of tamed this map well.

Looks like your issue on the Zara save was not getting the economy up once initial stack was gone. You seemed to need 18 or so HA for him. Which is a tough old slog.

Try the Incan attack from 1200bc see if this changes your game.

 

[Henrik75]

I think HA here actually does work best for speed. Without axes it would be hard to beat a 1000bc rush. Most AI have no metal by then.

I think Oracle construction is easily possible. Downside is you need axes and his UU to take cities so your looking at at 12-13 strong stack moving 1mp. If the AI has hill cities with archers it's not so easy going.

I think issue with construction is time to get a decent stack together. Albeit you have plenty of forest to chop. HA with the UU and axes later would be good fun.

Farming those flood plains was a good thing to help your capital grow. This is a really slow but strong hammer/commerce start.

Construction wasn't too bad actually, i stacked units while teaching my way there. This is one of my favorite combos, horse archers+catapults, horse archers with 2 promotions and catapults can really do a lot.

Soon as i got construction I just 2 pop whipped a a catapult in each city and 3 was plenty to start with. This start is very strong with the amount of forest you have so i made sure to save them for math to get a really solid buildup. I started stacking pretty early with chariots and axes, then turned it into horse archers and catas.

You can be safe from the AI getting feudalism until about 1AD on immortal.

 

[Snowbird]

I farmed the FP's because I thought the start lacked food. I did one first, and the other a bit later. How would I play the opening if not farming the FP

Go BW, chop a settler probably.

Settling on gold is an option too (without map knowledge) - think 2 farms on FP pay for a citizen working gold... instead you can have +2 coins from start and two FP cottages (instead of farms). Such start would need a heavy priority on pottery although, so it would not be good in box in. (Well, heavy chopping on immortal would allow something, but on this map you are more boxed in by jungle/desert than the AI).

People like advising to farm FP, but two farms is what 14 worker turns to get +2 food? About 3 chops can be done in that time, so farming FP does not do much without granary, and even with it needs lots of whipping.

If we speak with map knowledge ... either attacking post construction - allowing Zara to settle/clear jungle and incas to build some wonders or... settle on gold going AH first and do chariot rush on Huyana.

 

[sampsa]

Go BW, chop a settler probably.

Yes, I think this is the best play. Many decent tiles, but no outstanding one and they all need different techs to be improved.

T50

Spoiler :

BW-wheel-agri-AH-writ-(math). Improved gold and went straight to settler since growing won't do much good, it's better to get 2nd city down asap. Two chops, then start improving copper. Go for 3 workers. Since I'd met 2 civs already pre T5 I knew axes are a decent option. With this amount of forest shouldn't be hard at all.

I preferred to go straight to writing-math to make Zara go missionary spam -mode (it worked!) intending to go construction next. Pottery is of course "decent" for a FIN guy with floodplains, but getting the wars going asap felt more urgent.

T50 9 axes, workers a bit out of place to build the road but it's decent still. Huayna should have no chance, even if he has copper/horse.

 

[sampsa]

Also, I don't think it's much different if you go for HAs. Again like in your previous game, just skip all the unnecessary techs, get there quickly, chop, attack. Start is pretty good so I think your 1200BC save can be improved by quite a bit. You have way too many forests left, many unnecessary mines, unnecessary monument in Pyongjang, you've whipped when I don't think the tiles are good for it.

 

[Henrik75]

Whipping is only really good if you have a lot of food imo. On food short cities I avoid it, especially since the cities have tons of production and forests to chop. 1 pop whips just stack unhappiness which is really bad in the early game, either go for 2 pop or nothing. In my game i did 1 round of 2 pop whips on catapults in each city before declaring, to get a quick boost to my stack to go in with. If I had gone with horse archers and nothing else, i would've done the same thing.

Also, with the amount of forests you have, it's worth grabbing math before going too crazy on chopping, that's a lot of extra potential hammers.

 

[sampsa]

Also, with the amount of forests you have, it's worth grabbing math before going too crazy on chopping, that's a lot of extra potential hammers.

I have to kind of disagree with this. It's most important to get the war going as soon as possible. Depending on which unit you go for, you may or may not have maths by that point. I would never delay an attack just to wait for mathematics.

 

[Snowbird]

Whipping is only really good if you have a lot of food imo.
1 pop whips just stack unhappiness which is really bad in the early game, either go for 2 pop or nothing.

Whipping is nearly always good. Less tiles to improve, more stuff to work with earlier.

How much does a city with one dry rice for food would stack?
22 food for 1>2 growth with +4 surplus is 5.5 turns of growth, so if I whip that city as soon as it grows let say 4 times it would be 22 turns until it regrows to size two, by which time I have only two unhappy with 18 turns timer.
To grow to size 4 it would need 22+24+26, 72/4-18 turns. So in this case you leave ~60 hammers (4 30 hammer whips, vs one 60 hammer) for 4 turns of growth (likely useless tiles anyway) and 1 unhappy. 60 hammers is like two chariots, which can make a real difference.

I guess citizens working forested grassland contribute something, but again typical buildup for chariot/axe/Ha rush does not last 18/22 turns, so my typical point is whip it to the ground, don't worry about happy since it is so slow growing and get grab some good land from AI.

 

[sampsa]

T72

Spoiler :

War is won after one cease fire. Nobody loves me but Zara, so I think I'll spare him for now hoping to get at least something via trade. Non-barracked axes are pretty crappy against archers in hill cities, so I've lost 8 axes already, 8 remain. A bit too slow on construction so I think I'll try to take Isabella's capital with pure axes, then add fire carts. Library (and SH) in Cuzco for a , guess for a golden age at some point. Nice to have FIN cottages without pottery.

 

[dankok8]

Yea... HA rushes should realistically occur at or slightly before 1000 BC. Even 10 turns later can mean a lot of defenders, maybe WHEOOHRN AI's, perhaps the target AI gets Alpha and starts bribing people on you. Speed is key. One thing I've also done is hook up Horses before HBR is done and build a few Chariots to use in combination with HA's. They're weaker but a stack of say 5 HA's and 3 Chariots can be enough to get the ball rolling with reinforcements on the way. Another important thing is to go for the strongest cities especially their capital first using the element of surprise to your advantage.

EDIT: I'm at this stage a decent Immortal player.

 

[sampsa]

Another important thing is to go for the strongest cities especially their capital first using the element of surprise to your advantage.

Yes, this is hugely important. In OP's screenshots there are city ruins on a hill. Just avoid this city, it's costly to take it and razing it doesn't help our game really (well, some from capturing it).

 

[gavenkoa]

22 food for 1>2 growth with +4 surplus is 5.5 turns of growth, so if I whip that city as soon as it grows let say 4 times it would be 22 turns until it regrows to size two, by which time I have only two unhappy with 18 turns timer.
To grow to size 4 it would need 22+24+26, 72/4-18 turns. So in this case you leave ~60 hammers (4 30 hammer whips, vs one 60 hammer) for 4 turns of growth (likely useless tiles anyway) and 1 unhappy.

So (22+24+26)/4=18T and 60H. And 18H from green forests (2F1H). Or more precisely:

1Pop: 4F, 22/4=6T & overflow 2F
2Pop: 4F1H, (24-2)/4 = 6T & overflow 2F & 6H
3Pop: 4F2H, (26-2)/4 = 6T & 2H*6T = 12H
4Pop whip: 1T & 60H
Total: 19T, 2Pop, 6+6+6+1=19T, 6H+12H+60H=78H

Let's work mines on green hills ))

1Pop: 4F, 22/4=6T & overflow 2F
2Pop: 3F3H, (24-2)/3 = 8T & overflow 1F & 8*3=24H
3Pop: 2F6H, 19T-(6+8)T=5T, 1F+2F*5T=11F, 6H*5T=30H
Total: 19T, 3Pop & free 11F & 24H+30H = 54H. Potential 1Pop whip is +30H, with net 84H. So mines are preferred before Granary.

 

[Snowbird]

Only if you WB mines in.

Each mine made is 5 turns of not chopping. Each turn chopping is worth 5 hammers, so 2 mines is worth 50 hammers which is almost what your mines produced through 19 turns + all the missed whipping.