Post Monarch Musings

[John117]

Well now that exams are done I finally had the chance to pick up my first legit Monarch win; Space Race with Willem on an archipelago map (ok maybe not that legit) with standard size and normal speed. I noticed a couple of things this time that I thought were worth mentioning.

First; I avoided all war until 1955 when there was a big world war and thankfully I was cemented on the winning side. I just about destroyed a smaller civ with my bombers against his riflemen and immediately turned his land into a colony.

Also; if you happen to be the near the biggest, most powerful civ and you guys share a religion you are set for the game. I was on the same continent as Zaraq and managed to get to like +16 relationship with him. A defensive pact with him was a pretty powerful tool.

Thirdly, separating my best hammer, gold, and research city really paid off. None of those three were my capitol and that allowed the most flexibility. Especcially when my hammer city was pulling in 450 hammers a turn.



Now for all the experts out there here are my questions.
1) I stayed middle of the pack for the entire game, typically being behind in tech by 3 or 4 from the leaders, however by the turn of the 20th century, I suddenly find myself the tech leader. It's like the other civ's just gave up reseaching. Is this normal?

2) As much as it was a space race; it really wasn't. I was the second civ to finish Apollo Program and immediately devoted about half my cities to space ship parts; with the other half going to the war effort. By the time the ship arrived at Alpha centauri, none of the other civ's were very close to finishing, nor did any of them try to stop me. Does the AI not register that a victory condition is about to be met and try and do something about it?

3) Normally when I play, Broadway, Holleywood and Rock and Roll are very popular with the AI. Yet this time, I was able to get all of them, plus the Eiffel tower, plus the 3 gorge dam with out really focussing on them. Again it's like the AI just sort of stopped trying.

4) Finally, I went through the whole game with only one off-shore oil platform and no uranium. The uranium only precluded me from getting the attack sub because the Manhatten Project was never finished. And the oil; while coming late, still came in enough time for me to work up a decent navy and air force so that I had an impressive bomber command for the war. Is this acceptable from a strategic point of view or in future should I make more of an effort to go to war for these resources?


I'd appreciate feedback regarding these points. I'll put a save of a few turns before victory up if anyone's interested.

 

[The Snug]

1. Two possible reasons: Typically, for most "builder" type players, the cumulative infrastructure doesn't really start "kicking in" until late in the game since "builder" nations tend to be smaller (bcz they don't go conquering other civs) sized. Early game, the AI makes up for its smaller infrastructure through sheer size and through its handicapped bonuses. Hence, it takes time for superior infrastructure to firstly catch-up and then to out-distance the AI. The second reason, which works in conjuction to the first, is that the AI tends to build massive militaries (and if they haven't expunged all of their units through warfare) will be paying exorbitant maintenance which stifles their research rates. Or, in contrast, the AI will have fought too many wars and will spend all of its time replacing dead soldiers instead of building infrastructure.

Additionally, the personality mix of leaders in your game could be a factor. Did you have an over-abundance of warlike civs rather than financial civs?

2&3. It sounds like you accumulated such a vast tech lead that the AI couldn't stop you even if it had wanted too. Yet again, warlike civs are less likely to pursue both spaceships and happy wonders.

4. Uranium is rarely a factor (especially if you pass the "no nukes" UN resolution). How you survived without oil I cannot imagine. Well, the answer is simply in the fact that you avoided war for so long. If you had warred earlier, you would have been killed (supposing that another AI could utilize oil while you could not).

 

[John117]

1. Two possible reasons: Typically, for most "builder" type players, the cumulative infrastructure doesn't really start "kicking in" until late in the game since "builder" nations tend to be smaller (bcz they don't go conquering other civs) sized. Early game, the AI makes up for its smaller infrastructure through sheer size and through its handicapped bonuses. Hence, it takes time for superior infrastructure to firstly catch-up and then to out-distance the AI. The second reason, which works in conjuction to the first, is that the AI tends to build massive militaries (and if they haven't expunged all of their units through warfare) will be paying exorbitant maintenance which stifles their research rates. Or, in contrast, the AI will have fought too many wars and will spend all of its time replacing dead soldiers instead of building infrastructure.

Additionally, the personality mix of leaders in your game could be a factor. Did you have an over-abundance of warlike civs rather than financial civs?

Makes sense; although I thought you only paid for unit maintenance when your units were outside of your territory. The leaders were Zaraq, Charlemange, Mansu Mansu, Montezuma, Sitting Bull, and Washington.

I'm still surprised I didn't get attacked to 1958 though, I was right in the middle of the power-ratings and especially lacking oil for the early industrial era I was expecting something.

 

[PieceOfMind]

For Q2, you're pretty much right. The AI don't stop you when you are nearing a victory.

One of the silliest wins I had was a Monarch game on a huge map, where I won with a culture victory with 5 cities total (+1 useless island city) and power rating about one tenth of the average, if that.

No one warred with me at all. Sure I maybe did diplomacy right but I thought it cheesy that no one tried to stop me.

10 AI opponents just sat happily building spaceship parts and bickering with each other occasionally.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

4. Uranium is rarely a factor (especially if you pass the "no nukes" UN resolution). How you survived without oil I cannot imagine. Well, the answer is simply in the fact that you avoided war for so long. If you had warred earlier, you would have been killed (supposing that another AI could utilize oil while you could not).

Nukes are overwhelmingly powerful though. I don't use them too much though unless I have the kind of tech lead that would let me use them enough to keep everyone else away from fission/rocketry.

That said, uranium IS very useful if you don't have oil. It allows you to build virtually every modern naval unit. This is only half the utility of oil which allows planes and tanks, but on water maps you're not much worse off for not having oil if you do have uranium.

It's a strong trading resource too and if nukes are banned you might as well.

 

[nanomage]

Do the AI's really not care for you beeing close to culture/space victory?
once when i played monarch as stalin and begun stamping out those SS parts with Russian research institute, my best friend (Suryavarman II) declared war on me (he was pleased at +6 or +7), although he does not seem to be a warmonger. I thought then it was to prevent me from space victory.

 

[PieceOfMind]

Do the AI's really not care for you beeing close to culture/space victory?
once when i played monarch as stalin and begun stamping out those SS parts with Russian research institute, my best friend (Suryavarman II) declared war on me (he was pleased at +6 or +7), although he does not seem to be a warmonger. I thought then it was to prevent me from space victory.

I would imagine it was just coincidence but I could be wrong. At less than friendly there's always a possibility of DoW. Maybe Gandhi is an exception to that rule.

 

[John117]

Nukes are overwhelmingly powerful though. I don't use them too much though unless I have the kind of tech lead that would let me use them enough to keep everyone else away from fission/rocketry.

That said, uranium IS very useful if you don't have oil. It allows you to build virtually every modern naval unit. This is only half the utility of oil which allows planes and tanks, but on water maps you're not much worse off for not having oil if you do have uranium.

It's a strong trading resource too and if nukes are banned you might as well.

Ok but here's a problem I faced all game. Zaraq, my closest ally (over +16) and very friendly had three sources of oil. There was nothing I could do to get him to give me one. And I had a lot of resources, Hit musicals, hit movies, gold, all kinds of seafood, ivory, you name it. He wouldn't take any offering. How are you suppose to deal with that?

 

[PieceOfMind]

Ok but here's a problem I faced all game. Zaraq, my closest ally (over +16) and very friendly had three sources of oil. There was nothing I could do to get him to give me one. And I had a lot of resources, Hit musicals, hit movies, gold, all kinds of seafood, ivory, you name it. He wouldn't take any offering. How are you suppose to deal with that?

If the resources was "redded out" then there definitely was nothing you could do. Otherwise, you could increase your gold slider to 100% (ie. drop all sliders to 0) and see if a large amount of GPT will do the trick. If it costs you 400GPT for 10 turns will you take it? If you do take a deal like that you're going to want to make the most of time of the deal and cancel it as soon as you can.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

I would imagine it was just coincidence but I could be wrong. At less than friendly there's always a possibility of DoW. Maybe Gandhi is an exception to that rule.

No, there's a long list of AIs that will not declare at pleased. To name just a few (not all of them by any means) off the top of my head:

Gandhi
Frederick
Elizabeth
Brennus
Boudica
Mehmed (though he's a powerful warmonger @ cautious/below)
Sitting Bull
Lincoln
Washington

These are just off the top of my head. There are others I'm less sure of, but probably. Regardless, a lot of AIs don't declare at pleased and knowing which they are is pretty useful.

Ok but here's a problem I faced all game. Zaraq, my closest ally (over +16) and very friendly had three sources of oil. There was nothing I could do to get him to give me one. And I had a lot of resources, Hit musicals, hit movies, gold, all kinds of seafood, ivory, you name it. He wouldn't take any offering. How are you suppose to deal with that?

...BETRAYAL!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Some AIs are set to not trade certain things, ever. IIRC liz won't ever trade maps for example. So, if betraying Zara isn't an option, you have to work with just uranium (should you have it), or try to found standard ethanol and spread it where you need oil units. The final option is to attack someone else who also has oil.

That last option is pretty sound. Oil is visible at sci-method but can't be used in any way, shape or form until combustion. This is a somewhat big window to go handing out a beating to get some oil if you don't have viable alternatives.

 

[John117]

No, there's a long list of AIs that will not declare at pleased. To name just a few (not all of them by any means) off the top of my head:

Gandhi
Frederick
Elizabeth
Brennus
Boudica
Mehmed (though he's a powerful warmonger @ cautious/below)
Sitting Bull
Lincoln
Washington

These are just off the top of my head. There are others I'm less sure of, but probably. Regardless, a lot of AIs don't declare at pleased and knowing which they are is pretty useful.



...BETRAYAL!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Some AIs are set to not trade certain things, ever. IIRC liz won't ever trade maps for example. So, if betraying Zara isn't an option, you have to work with just uranium (should you have it), or try to found standard ethanol and spread it where you need oil units. The final option is to attack someone else who also has oil.

That last option is pretty sound. Oil is visible at sci-method but can't be used in any way, shape or form until combustion. This is a somewhat big window to go handing out a beating to get some oil if you don't have viable alternatives.

That's pretty heavy stuff to know that certain AI are written to never do certain things. Is there a list somewhere with more information like this? You're right it would be nice to know if someone will not declare war on you so long as they are pleased.

 

[Supr49er]

Well now that exams are done I finally had the chance to pick up my first legit Monarch win; Space Race with Willem on an archipelago map (ok maybe not that legit) ...

No, this is a legit win. Congratulations.

 

[Jewman]

4) Finally, I went through the whole game with only one off-shore oil platform and no uranium. The uranium only precluded me from getting the attack sub because the Manhatten Project was never finished. And the oil; while coming late, still came in enough time for me to work up a decent navy and air force so that I had an impressive bomber command for the war. Is this acceptable from a strategic point of view or in future should I make more of an effort to go to war for these resources?

i play monarch too and ive never had the AI build manhattan project. I hear people talk about nukes, but the AI rarely even stressed getting fission, theyll go for artillery and rocketry and satellites and medicine but theyll forget fission. In my last game i had a decently sized empires, (3rd largest) and had two vassals (one of which controllled almost half of the new world and was 4th largest empire) but Willem had outteched me in the early 1900s and had built the Apollo Program and was at leaest 5-6 techs ahead of me.
i simply built a ton of spies, sent them to all his uranium resources and the same turn i built the manhattan project, i simultaneously destroyed all his uranium resources, and continued doing so until i amassed a massive arsenal of nukes and obliterated his army (2-3 times larger, and more advanced than mine) and won a Diplomatic victory from reducing his population to basically nothing making me be at least 40-50% of world population.

 

[Lone Wolf]

Elizabeth

She can declare on pleased. Her general peacefulness means that such declarations will be rare, through.

And everyone can declare at pleased, if they made the decision to attack you when they were cautious.