Post-patch combat AI: tactical level shocking, strategic level reasonable

Lanstro

Prince
Joined
Sep 20, 2004
Messages
333
Some of the following I'll credit to the patch, some to the AI's dumb luck. But it did pull out some pretty nice moves.

I'm playing as Japan at immortal difficulty on a standard sized continents map with standard settings. My continent has 3 other civs on it, and is shaped kind of like a snowman with a fat head. I've started where the eyes are and England is at one side of the throat. Her first city is placed on the other side of the throat, cutting me off from the snowman's body (first smart move: this one I put down to dumb luck rather than her knowing to cut me off). I share the snowman's head with 3 city states, and there's still room for me to settle 4 cities in total. I do so.

Fast forward to the early medieval ages. I've got a catapult, 2 horsemen, 2 swordsmen and an archer. 2 of my cities are near England: one is slightly closer to her with more vulnerable terrain so I put most of my units around that one. I've allied myself to the only maritime city state in the snowman's head, Singapore, which also is close-ish to England, reinforcing my line against her. England has about 7 cities and has been warring on-and-off with the civs in the snowman's body for quite a while, without making much progress (probably because the AI's now more defensive). She's a few techs ahead of me (the AI seems slightly better at teching post-patch), including having her longbows out. She switches strategies, declares war on me and makes a move. (At a strategic level, this is a smart move: she's ahead in tech, she's got a bigger army and she can take my nice lands. It's what I'd have done in her position)

Unfortunately the AI still sucks at offensive tactical combat. She moves her army towards my other frontline city which isn't so heavily defended (good move), but does so in the normal stupid way. The melee units/horsemen arrive a couple of turns ahead of the archers/longbows, and are sniped by my reinforcements and my rush-bought catapult. I lost a horseman but she lost way more. When the archers do arrive, they seemed to just stand around and only occasionally shoot. It was terrible.

When the 3-4 melee units all died, England retreated her back row ranged units (good move: they'd have been slaughtered otherwise). Since longbows have 3 range and there were quite a few hexes of open ground between my city and hers, it created a no man's land in the middle which I couldn't attack into without heavy losses. A few turns of stalemate ensued.

She started asking for peace, but her demands were steep so I said no. So she switched strategy again. She bought the alliance of one of the other city states next to me, and since they had a few pikemen and horsemen, that kept me busy (intentional move or dumb luck? not sure). In the meantime, she marched on Singapore, my allied city state, quickly subduing it using her 3 range longbows and a few horsemen (good strategic move, reasonably good tactical execution too). Losing the pearls from it hurt, but not as much as the fact that the remaining city state next to me had a quest out to kill Singapore! Now that city state was is also allied with her and warring me! (dumb luck or intentional? not sure, but very effective) All this time she was happy to peace, provided that I bequeathed her my firstborn.

So now I'm stuck in my snowman's head, at war with my neighbour who's got me choked in, and 2 city states who have equivalent or better military units than me. Certainly an interesting game.

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To pre-empt people who are going to say 'you could have just horsemen rushed her lol' or the riflemen slingshot would've killed her': yes, I agree. But there are obviously strategies that the AI can't handle and some game mechanics that are broken. I try those things once to see what it's about and try not to use them again. I expect these things to be patched eventually, or at worst modded out, but for the time being there's no fun in exploiting broken mechanics so I play in a 'standard' way.
 
The AI has improved at war greatly.

England invaded me in my recent game and took Washington but even after I smashed them and retook the city, they still had a pretty large back-up force and wasn't about to let me get over easily. It it wasn't for the Runaway AI on the other continent declaring war on England, I would've been in trouble. Too bad diplomacy is terrible.
 
She's a few techs ahead of me (the AI seems slightly better at teching post-patch)

I have to agree with this. It seems that the workers not spamming TPs on Auto made a big difference. I now see farms and cities with large populations - and given how libraries generate blue flasks, this would explain the better tech advancement.
 
First time I've lost a city on less than deity happened right after the patch. I was fighting a war in the far east and all my units were stationed there. Two nations on my west side suddenly waged war on me, which I believe was because all my units were on the other side. They pulled up 4 Companion cavalry and 2 trebuchets and some cannon fodder. They used 4 turns or so to position them, so if I had had any siege weapon in my city the attack would have failed. But after those 4 turns they launched a very potent attack. My city was on a hill surrounded by mountains and a river which they had to cross, but they completely crushed it in one turn. They even played pretty smart with their units. Fortifying while the others are positioning and then instant heal them right before the attack.
 
I've noticed a big difference since the patch.

I had Ghandi declare war on me and just stream roll over one of my cities in 2 turns... I really wasn't expecting a battle and most of my military units were drawn away on other business.

I mustered up some counter attacks, and Ghandi was really take advantage of the range on his elephant archers. He was really hurting me. I don't know if it was intentional or not, but it seemed like he was using terrain to keep me at range. There was a lot of rough terrain (swamps, etc) that kept me from getting to him easily and when I tried to pursue he pulled back, kept shooting and brought in the melee to finish off a few of my guys.

I managed to push off his attacks and tried to build up more of an offensive again. After I had defeated some of his units, it seemed he pulled back to his cities. I positioned myself in some defensible terrain (with a few archers at key points) and expected for him to strike back again... but he just stayed there.

Before the patch (and in previous versions before V) it has been easy to draw out the computer to a non-safe position and punish him with a counter attack... but no suck luck today.

I continued to get a few more units so I'd feel more comfortable with an assault and then I pushed forward.

Again, the terrain was nasty (lots of swamps, hills, etc) and when I came in he seemed to rush at me out of nowhere, flanking me and focusing fire in brutally effective ways. Guys that I didn't even know were around popped out of the fog of war to wreck my army!

It seems that he was the one in a defensible position waiting on me to come in and wreck me, and had me at a terrain disadvantage to boot.

The differences in AI before and after the patch is night and day. Before the patch, it was sad just how much of a pushover the AI could be. Now, I feel like they are getting their revenge... in a brutal way.

At least that was my experience... (on King level)
 
For a report on the patch-"62" AI:
On a sneaky continent was me and USA, the 2 civs, and one CS.
USA got CS (Geneva) as ally and next turn declared on me - pretty clever... :)
And USA also was prepared to start the war...
 
My current game also had a surprising change post-patch.

King, Great Lakes, Standard

Siam was my closest neighbor and started to expand fast and lead in points. They settled a city beside my capital and I told them to not settle any cities near me. Surprisingly, they agreed! (This has never happened to me! They always say "Unacceptable, I am sovereign and I shall do whatever I want.")

I traded with them (1:1), they clearly looked friendly. As I am not really the warmongering type, I was hoping I can be allies with them, for they were the strongest. They didn't agree with the PoC but they still were friendly. So I was confident nothing bad will happen so I didn't make anymore units and focused on my economy.

After a few turns, Siam's army started to rally up on my capital's borders and before I can prepare they DoW'd. I only had 1 Pikeman vs 2 Archers, 3 Warriors and 1 Swordsman!

I panicked and nearly died. I sold all my luxury resources just to rush buy units and defend. I almost lost at turn 60ish.

I was really naive to think they could be friendly.
 
The only difference is the effective production of some types of units largely ignored before patch... Combat AI still sucks, i repatly won with AI overwhelming me in numbers because it still doesn't know of to handle combat.... And that is the most annoying part...
 
Yeah I've definately been seeing a lot of horsemen. Wondering if I might one day build a spearman O.O
 
i'm confused,.....it still sucks or it is better? i can re open CivV or i must keep it shut for another patch or two?
 
Some nice stories of AI brilliance here, but I'm yet to see them in my game. AI still sends single catapults to take cities, and no use of great general. :(
 
I am currently fighting a war and still capturing workers who flood out of their cities to surrender, only to be followed by archers which get plainly overrun.

Currently I don't see much improvement, especially not the advertised improved city defense.

P.S: and I am playing a new game, not continuing an old one
 
it's possible that the "new Ai" now can manage some situation but not all? you speck after using cav rush or after trying to do a "normal" game? coz i want to know if the AI sucks at all or if the player Helping it....

still very confused btw
 
The AI seems to wield mobile units with reasonable finesse, it's the plodding ground-pounders that get into trouble. If you let them get into the modern era they can be surprisingly effective with tanks and mech infantry, marshalling its units in safe territory before unleashing focused strikes of overwhelming force. Unfortunately they still seem to underuse horsemen, so their pre-industrial armies are still mostly archers and footsoldiers that can be picked off at your leisure as they slowly tromp to their destinations.

They seem to be okay with artillery, too. They can sort of manage a navy. I've seen some AI civs with formidable amounts of caravel/frigate/destroyer spam, and they have some sense of how to use it. They're really not aggressive enough with them, though, and mostly stick to defending their territorial waters. This can get nasty since they will use coastal artillery to good effect, but the AI doesn't swarm properly with its ships so you don't have to worry about your wounded ships getting ganged up on.

The AI also seems predisposed to spending all its ships' experience on full heals; it does a good job of repairing and retreating in the face of hopeless odds, but if it has a full experience meter it will usually blow an upgrade and continue fighting in the face of still-mostly-hopeless odds. Sometimes this is a good idea if it can trade ships, but if you're upgrading and retreating to heal and they're not then eventually you get a decisive quality advantage.
 
They definitely didn't fix everything, but they didn't claim to. As long as there are more patches coming, this was a good step forward.
 
I think AI using exp upgrades on full heals is preferable to a dead upgraded unit.

most human players also use promotions for heals--i know i do. it's cheaper to just produce a new unit in an armoy/barracks city than to lose a critical unit in a skirmish now that units are so important, relative to how throwaway they were before.
 
What I have heard it's still awful whatever level you are looking at. (It has however improved a notch after patch)

But then again that player is hardcore wargamer and can recognize unable AIs with first glance.
 
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