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Post Patch Strategy Changes

Discussion in 'Civ5 - Strategy & Tips' started by biohazard72, Mar 2, 2011.

  1. Martin Alvito

    Martin Alvito Real men play SMAC

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    Whenever possible, I go double Scout, steal somebody's Workers and make peace after selling everything for the turn ~40 slingshot RAs. That and the Worker of a CS get the job done until the capital can sneak one or two more in, and I lose nothing in comparison to your approach (and gain the NC) by delaying expansion. Siam can start building the capital Wat in the late 60s in a strong start, with the post-Colosseum Wats starting in the early 70s. Needing Libraries slows the process by about ten turns.

    What I'm struggling with right now is the correct SP approach. I'm finding that the strongest :c5science: approach is simply Liberty -> Collective Rule -> Rationalism -> Secularism. If you hit the usual Culture ruin, Collective Rule arrives right when you want it. You move the Settler into place, pop it when the NC finishes and spam Settlers in the capital. The Rationalism GA then pushes the Unis/Wats along a bit (though delaying the Happiness GA), and Secularism arrives when you need it.

    If you want to grow cities larger than my usual size 3-4, you pretty much have to go for Landed Elite. Passing on extra cities in order to pop boom is a lot like going for Patronage was pre-patch - better in the short run, and considerably worse in the long run because you screw yourself on GS production. The rule of one city per GS you can produce before the game ends is not one to break lightly. The only exception is that the capital can often produce two if you decide to keep the Uni/Wat staffed.
     
  2. Buccaneer

    Buccaneer Deity

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    My typical city screen (later in the game) would show 3-4 workable cities and about 10-18 puppet cities, depending on map size and shape. War is essential for many reasons; having many workable cities are not, imo.

    Additionally, my 3-4 cities are sized 10-20. I have been having a good deal of bad luck in the number of maritimes showing up among the 12-16 city-states. One game there were only 1-2.
     
  3. biohazard72

    biohazard72 Prince

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    Liberty-Collective Rule-Rationalism-Secularism seems strong to me too, at least for NC starts.

    I think I'm going to mess around a bit with some comparative scenarios. Tradition-Legalism-Landed Elite vs. Liberty-Collective Rule-future policies, NC start vs. REX, etc. to gauge best how to attack this next patch. The margin between the strategies might actually be thin enough to allow situation and terrain to influence, but I'm not sure. I would bet plains starts benefit from Landed Elite more than any other start because they can seriously lack food for a while until Workers can make some farms (which, for most cities, is low on the improvement totem pole because of the need to improve luxuries and strategic resources).
     
  4. Tabarnak

    Tabarnak Cut your lousy hairs!

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    I agree. Land can play a role now....finally.
     
  5. Martin Alvito

    Martin Alvito Real men play SMAC

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    I also agree that the dirt is starting to matter, and I believe that it's the variable that is interfering with my ability to precisely pin down what to do when.

    I ran a lot of comparative 50-100 turn games on the first two nights after the patch hit. The results weren't as conclusive as I'd like. The one consistent theme, at least for a :c5science: focus, ended up being that early Landed Elite isn't as good as I expected.

    I bet it's amazing after about turn 100, though. Having the ability to continue to grow through my midgame :c5happy: surplus in parts cities and other important locations could be very, very helpful.
     
  6. Dinhcara

    Dinhcara Chieftain

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    I just completed a game like this. Small map, continents, Ghandi, King difficulty (I'm still relatively new to Civ :( )

    Won the game via cultural victory at turn 346
     
  7. Sneaks

    Sneaks Brooklyn Bum

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    I've actually debated doubling back to Tradition after Secularism to finish the game with Trad/Legal/LE instead of my usual attempt to jaunt down Order, and use the extra 2 food to either send 1 more worker per city to the mines or to the unemployment line for +1:c5production: 2:c5science: (or possibly 2:c5production: if for some bizarre reason I managed to get SoL.

    I'm just not sure how much time I would have to make use of it for the initial opportunity cost.
     
  8. troytheface

    troytheface Deity

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    i have changed from "build a city in the desert next to an Oasis and then aim for optics and settle isles" (standard, continents) to "build a city in the desert next to an Oasis and then aim for optics and settle isles with an Atoll"

    this is the superior
     
  9. Buccaneer

    Buccaneer Deity

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    Good job, I have yet to complete such a victory. Next time, play with India, Greece, Russia and Babylon as your opponents.
     
  10. Dinhcara

    Dinhcara Chieftain

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    I spawned on continent with Montezuma and Augustus.. The other continent held Suleiman, Genghis, and Ramsees.

    I only had 2 cities that finished in the mid 20s in size but my score was miserable at the end... Could I have won quicker? The game speed was standard. I'm not really sure what I could do better.
     
  11. Gilgamesch

    Gilgamesch Ancient Alien

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    Sometimes it is better to burn the cities and replace them with your own. The 3-5 city aspect is getting better since the patch was released.
     
  12. hellboy909

    hellboy909 Chieftain

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    I'm doing that right now (partly because my rig can't handle larger maps and partly because I think smaller maps are more fun).

    Duel/Pangea with 5 AI civs and 4 CSs gets crowded REAL fast :)
     
  13. joncnunn

    joncnunn Senior Java Wizard Moderator

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    It looks to me, that with the new patch, we don't need to build many workers.
    Instead just wait for barbs to spawn and capture the major AIs settlers & workers (along with some city state workers) and take them. (Their settlers turning into workers)

    While that tactic did exist pre patch; there's so many more barbs post-patch and the AI is currently doing a lousy job protecting them.

    (In my current game I ended up capturing 5 workers; which was so many I ended up disbanding some of them. And I used one of the workers to help block the American AI [looks like Washington but sounds like Clinton] from founding a city in a spot I wanted to,)

    Also with the increased minimum distance, it is much easier to carpet a planned city site to deny it. (In my example there; between my closet city; a City State and one of America's already existing cities there was only three tiles that a city site there could be. Sword in one, Archer in second, and worker in third and that AI settler pair is stuck for decades waiting for a tile to clear that's never going to. The AI finally gave up and sent it elsewhere after my own existing city took in all third ring tiles in that direction.)
     
  14. Martin Alvito

    Martin Alvito Real men play SMAC

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    That's too long to wait on Deity, though. If you start a very early war and steal both Workers from a civ (Scouts are fantastic at this), you can often get a white peace around turn 40. Bagging both Workers sets back that AI civ's development markedly, which causes it to consider you an equal.

    Even if you can't get a white peace, you can simply spend and loan everything you have for Research Agreements, then capitulate with the pittance you have for peace. It's not going to have enough units to want to press the issue, because it spent many turns replacing the Workers.
     
  15. biohazard72

    biohazard72 Prince

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    I just finished a game without Worker steals. I only had 2 Workers until Railroads, but I managed everything okay, mainly because my resource tiles were tiles I wanted to work anyway. But I wouldn't recommend so few Workers.

    Usually I steal 2 from one city-state. Considering all the posts you make about Worker stealing from AIs, I might consider doing that as well, because having more Workers does agree with my REXy French style.
     
  16. Martin Alvito

    Martin Alvito Real men play SMAC

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    If you REX, you must rob AIs. You'll be amazed what it does for your game. If you stay small, it's optional but recommended.

    How on earth are you getting city-states to produce two Workers? Or is it that I'm just impatient and snatch the first Worker I see a useless (Hostile, Militaristic, indefensible) city-state build?
     
  17. biohazard72

    biohazard72 Prince

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    Yes, I should probably rob AIs. I fully acknowledge that it's the biggest weakness in my game, but no longer! I vow to rob mercilessly next game!

    Usually I rob the city-state for it's Worker, escort the Worker back, heal up the capturing unit, then park it just outside of sight range of a tile I expect the city-state to prioritize for its Worker. At that point, I just peek my unit in from time to time until it produces another Worker to steal. It's not foolproof, as they can easily make a military unit instead of a replacement Worker (or they see you and shield their Worker in the city before you can steal it), but I've stolen 3 from a city-state once.

    I'd say it's more common to only get 1 Worker from a city-state due to circumstance, but you definitely can get several if things break your way.
     
  18. Martin Alvito

    Martin Alvito Real men play SMAC

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    OK, I get it. I always insta-peace. I steal with an exploring unit and prefer not to stop exploring or risk having it die to blundering across a barb camp on the second move due to blocked LOS.

    I'll have to try that the next time I steal close to home.
     
  19. biohazard72

    biohazard72 Prince

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    Yeah it's definitely better close-to-home. For that reason, I usually Worker steal on the nearest city-state early on (which is also the least likely to be protected by an AI).

    An additional benefit? Staying at war with a city-state indefinitely like that can allow you to wipe them out later in the game without the diplo hit with city-states, securing their sweet, sweet luxury. Probably the easiest with Mongolia or Babylon, who will be beelining military techs and will have a military edge early. Worst case scenario, you just peace them if they get up in your grill.

    BTW this idea was alpaca's originally so credit to him.
     
  20. TW_Honorius

    TW_Honorius Warlord

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    1. Rush Iron Working

    2. If Iron within borders, then rush Steel

    3. Rush Economics

    4. Rush Civil Service

    5. Rush Rifling

    6. Rush Acoustics
     

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