Postgrad degrees

[Mise]

Hello, I've been thinking of doing a postgrad qualification of some sort. I graduated with a BSc in Physics in 2006, and have been working since 2007. I've only really had a years' experience in a "hard" job - previous jobs were "data monkey" jobs, but the one I'm in now involves decision making, statistical modelling, economic analysis, stuff like that. I don't know what I want to do when I grow up, but I don't particularly want to manage people or have to deal with them in any way. My current plan goes like this: 1. Get a postgrad degree, 2. Get a better job, 3. Get another better job, 4. Go work for a gov't think tank, 5. Get elected as an MP, 6. Join Cabinet, 7. Become Prime Minister.

The most obvious postgrad degree for me to do would be the MBA, so I'll start off by asking:

Has anyone done an MBA?
How many years experience would you recommend I get before starting one? London Business School (ranked joint best in the world with Wharton according to the FT) has stats on this - average work experience for 2009 intake is 5.6 yrs // min. req. is 3 yrs. I've asked a few people, and they seem to think I should apply for 2011 or 2012 rather than 2010, on the basis of my relative lack of experience. What do you think? *points*
Has anyone taken the GMAT? Is it hard? The average for top business schools is around 700 -- how hard is it to get a score like that? How smart do you have to be to get 700? Wiki sez the median is 500 (but the mean is 553!) and the s.d. is 100, meaning that only 2.3% of people get 700 or more! 600 is the more common min. req., which is still top 15%! Is it really that hard to get into a top business school?

The next thing I was thinking about is becoming a Quant. So I'll ask:

What MSc should I get if I want to become a Quant?
I figure something Computery/Statisticy/Mathsy/Physicsy? Do I need a PhD? Has anyone done an MSc in this kind of area and gone on to become a Quant, or does anyone know anyone who has done this? Two heads are better than one, and right now my head is in a million possible worlds at once and drawing blanks; it would be really cool if any of you chaps could explain or point me to some kind of website that explains in 5 or 6 bullet points how to become a Quant.

The final thing I am thinking about is what kind of job I want. So, I ask you:

What kind of job can I do in a businessy environment that pays a lot but doesn't involve having to manage people?
Strategy? Is that hard? Can I become some kind of director or decision making person without having to manage people myself?

EDIT: One more question:

Are Finance MScs worth it? Or is it better to get a CFA or something?

And, so that this thread isn't all about me, feel free to share any life goals or plans you have, realistic or otherwise, and how far along that plan you are at right now.

 

[innonimatu]

Hello, I've been thinking of doing a postgrad qualification of some sort. I graduated with a BSc in Physics in 2006, and have been working since 2007. I've only really had a years' experience in a "hard" job - previous jobs were "data monkey" jobs, but the one I'm in now involves decision making, statistical modelling, economic analysis, stuff like that.

Hah! I knew it, you were very defensive about the recent financial frauds. You know, one professor I knew who was visiting from the Imperial College actually told me that he blamed physicists and mathematicians for last year's financial bust. Until a few years ago the people doing the analysis for banks were mostly engineers. After the were replaced by the maths and physics guys the banks lost touch with reality. Basically his thesis was that the financial crisis was caused not so much by deliberate fraud and theft but by a bunch of idiots savants who might be very good with mathematics but were of touch with the real world they were trying to manipulate.

Now, for an answer: the only think you need to "become a quant" is the skill to bullish other people. No post-graduation necessary. Just look at the people who invented the whole derivatives-mess. But if you want to waste money and time at least pick the right place. It won't be what you learn that matters, but who you meet.
But when taking any advice from me do keep in mind that if it depended on me quants and bankers in general would be out of a job.

 

[Mise]

Hah! I knew it, you were very defensive about the recent financial frauds. You know, one professor I knew who was visiting from the Imperial College actually told me that he blamed physicists and mathematicians for last year's financial bust. Until a few years ago the people doing the analysis for banks were mostly engineers. After the were replaced by the maths and physics guys the banks lost touch with reality. Basically his thesis was that the financial crisis was caused not so much by deliberate fraud and theft but by a bunch of idiots savants who might be very good with mathematics but were of touch with the real world they were trying to manipulate.

Now, for an answer: the only think you need to "become a quant" is the skill to bullish other people. No post-graduation necessary. Just look at the people who invented the whole derivatives-mess. But if you want to waste money and time at least pick the right place. It won't be what you learn that matters, but who you meet.
But when taking any advice from me do keep in mind that if it depended on me quants and bankers in general would be out of a job.

Uhh... I don't work at a bank, or in any finance firm, or even in the finance department of the firm I do work at, nor have I ever done so. Further more, I am neither an idiot nor a savant, nor am I detached from the real world by doing a [wiki]Physics[/wiki] degree. I would very much appreciate it if you refrained from commenting on things you know nothing about, but since that would prevent you from posting in any thread, I'll simply ask you to not post in this thread. Thanks.

 

[Adria]

There's some decent money in medical physics, but it's not exactly 'businessy'. I think new medical physicists get $80+k out of their residency, and our senior physicists are all over $100k (how much over, I don't know). It takes a long time to get there though - MSc, PhD (to be competitive), and 1 or 2 year residency.

 

[innonimatu]

Uhh... I don't work at a bank, or in any finance firm, or even in the finance department of the firm I do work at, nor have I ever done so. Further more, I am neither an idiot nor a savant, nor am I detached from the real world by doing a [wiki]Physics[/wiki] degree. I would very much appreciate it if you refrained from commenting on things you know nothing about, but since that would prevent you from posting in any thread, I'll simply ask you to not post in this thread. Thanks.

One last post here, then: I never said you did, just that you were defensive of the way finance is now done. Unsurprising, given your goals. As for the little story I retold, I happen to agree with that professor's idea that physicists don't look at the world in the same way as engineers, and make worse financial analysts, but it's just an opinion - I won't argue over that. True, the "idiot savant" (and I really was quoting) was an exaggeration, but it gets the point across.

You may not appreciate it, but my advice above was good advice - I personally know several cases of successes and failures among people pursuing the same line you seem to wish, and the ones who floated to the top were those who focused on the social networks and "selling themselves".

 

[Integral]

What MSc should I get if I want to become a Quant?

Perhaps one of Masters in Financial Engineering degrees? I didn't see that on your list.

Carnegie Mellon, M.Sc. in Computational Finance
Columbia, M.Sc. Financial Engineering
Chicago, MS in Financial Mathematics
...et cetera. A list is here.

Edit: I should read the OP more closely. Regarding your edit, I don't know if they're worth it They're certainly expensive...

Books: My Life as a Quant.

Disclaimer: I'm a noob when it comes to actual quant/Wall Street jobs.

 

[Mise]

There's some decent money in medical physics, but it's not exactly 'businessy'. I think new medical physicists get $80+k out of their residency, and our senior physicists are all over $100k (how much over, I don't know). It takes a long time to get there though - MSc, PhD (to be competitive), and 1 or 2 year residency.

Thanks, but that looks like it'll take too long to get to 6 figures! I think I could get their sooner via other paths.

Perhaps one of Masters in Financial Engineering degrees? I didn't see that on your list.

Carnegie Mellon, M.Sc. in Computational Finance
Columbia, M.Sc. Financial Engineering
Chicago, MS in Financial Mathematics
...et cetera. A list is here.

Edit: I should read the OP more closely. Regarding your edit, I don't know if they're worth it They're certainly expensive...

Books: My Life as a Quant.

Disclaimer: I'm a noob when it comes to actual quant/Wall Street jobs.

Cheers Integral, those MSc programs look good. I'll try searching for Financial Engineering courses in UK universities. Do you know how competitive they are? I noticed that there are joint MSc/MBA courses available - does that mean they're at least as competitive as MBA programmes?

 

[Integral]

Oh, and for the GMAT, here is a resource: Testmagic's GMAT forum. I only know it by association (Testmagic also has an Economics Ph.D. forum), but I thought I'd pass it along.

--

Financial Engineering degrees are pretty competitive, and the applicant pool tends to universally competent.

 

[Shekwan]

You may not appreciate it, but my advice above was good advice - I personally know several cases of successes and failures among people pursuing the same line you seem to wish, and the ones who floated to the top were those who focused on the social networks and "selling themselves".

I don't want to butt in on a conversation here but I've got to say this. Has there been anyone ever who hasn't advanced their career without the use of social networks and selling their themselves to potential employers?

 

[Bill3000]

I don't want to butt in on a conversation here but I've got to say this. Has there been anyone ever who hasn't advanced their career without the use of social networks and selling their themselves to potential employers?

Hermits?

 

[GoodGame]

I'd look into skipping the MS, unless you're set on a MBA. PhD is the way to go, especially if your younger than say mid-30s. Kudos for going back to school though.

Also see if your employer will send you school on their money.

 

[Birdjaguar]

Hello, I've been thinking of doing a postgrad qualification of some sort. I graduated with a BSc in Physics in 2006, and have been working since 2007. I've only really had a years' experience in a "hard" job - previous jobs were "data monkey" jobs, but the one I'm in now involves decision making, statistical modelling, economic analysis, stuff like that. I don't know what I want to do when I grow up, but I don't particularly want to manage people or have to deal with them in any way.

The most obvious postgrad degree for me to do would be the MBA, so I'll start off by asking:

Has anyone done an MBA?
How many years experience would you recommend I get before starting one? London Business School (ranked joint best in the world with Wharton according to the FT) has stats on this - average work experience for 2009 intake is 5.6 yrs // min. req. is 3 yrs.

I have an MBA from UNC-CH. I taught school for 10 years before getting it. MBAs are all about managing people. Engineers often get that degree so they can advance in the company and assume a management role. It is a good degree if you want to be a consultant. In business the ability to manage people well is key to success; if you can't, you will not get far and that means less money. If you go for an MBA go for a top 20 school. that is where the best programs are and you will learn much more than at a lesser school. A graduate degree creates expectations of real skill and ability to contribute. A good school will provide the foundation you need to meet those expectations. Crappy ones don't.

You might consider being a science writer. There are good graduate programs for that and you will not have to manage others. There, your success will be only limited by your ability to write interesting articles.

Orienting yourself towards some aspect of health care might well provide long term security.

The next thing I was thinking about is becoming a Quant. So I'll ask:

What MSc should I get if I want to become a Quant?
I figure something Computery/Statisticy/Mathsy/Physicsy? Do I need a PhD? Has anyone done an MSc in this kind of area and gone on to become a Quant, or does anyone know anyone who has done this? Two heads are better than one, and right now my head is in a million possible worlds at once and drawing blanks; it would be really cool if any of you chaps could explain or point me to some kind of website that explains in 5 or 6 bullet points how to become a Quant.

I think quants are faddish.

The final thing I am thinking about is what kind of job I want. So, I ask you:

What kind of job can I do in a businessy environment that pays a lot but doesn't involve having to manage people?
Strategy? Is that hard? Can I become some kind of director or decision making person without having to manage people myself?

I have been in strategic management for a long time. Marketing is the typical path to that level, but you cannot get there without good people skills and a strong history of running marketing departments. The top people in companies manage departments that have people in them and usually produce revenue. Top managers may have support staff who act as a resource, but they get paid less and tend to go when company hits a rough spot.

My best advice: learn to manage people well. That will pay off.

 

[Whomp]

What Birdjag said.
There are two professors at the London Business School (Rob Goffee and Gareth Jones) that wrote "Why Should Anyone be Led by You". I think it's worth a read and here's a piece in the HBR...

http://harvardbusiness.org/hb-main/resources/pdfs/comm/microsoft/anyone-led.pdf

Also, a CFA isn't an option unless you're sponsored by a financial firm. It's a three year self study program and more difficult than many MBA programs.

 

[Snorrius]

But when taking any advice from me do keep in mind that if it depended on me quants and bankers in general would be out of a job.

By the time Mise get his degree, quants and bankers in general would be out of a job. I mean most of them .

 

[Mise]

Re Managing people: It's not that I can't manage people - I'm sure I could if I really tried. It's just that I find it boring... It seems to distract from the more interesting things about being at a high level within a company. Some people seem to enjoy managing people, and thrive on it; I would be quite happy to let them do that and let me concentrate on making $ and ¢ decisions. It seems like the grown ups are saying that in order to make the $ and ¢ decisions, I'd have to do at fair amount of people managing. I see Quants and other financial analyst types as being decision makers who don't have to manage people - and who make good money for it - which is why that seems like a good option.

To that end, if anyone has any good suggestions of other careers, do let me know!

@GoodGame: I think a PhD might take too long, and is a bit hit and miss. I don't really want to leave the employment ladder for longer than 2 years. It's something I'll look into though - I don't want to rule anything out yet.

 

[Kraznaya]

By the time Mise get his degree, quants and bankers in general would be out of a job. I mean most of them .

The best endorsement for a business related degree so far.

 

[Karalysia]

Whatever you do, don't go into law. There are no jobs, and you'll die alone, miserable and debt ridden.