Posting a game for comments.

[Walliard]

Learning is fun!

However, trying to learn without input from others is just plain stupid. Since I'm having trouble getting and maintaining any sort of concrete lead at Noble difficulty, I decided to post a save and update you on my progress periodically.

Map Size: Standard
Difficulty: Noble
Speed: Epic
Leader: Suryavaman II of Khmer (random)
Other settings: Random

Goal: Diplomatic Victory (either AP or UN)

Spoiler Starting location :

Corn, Stone, Pigs, fresh water, and a Goody Hut to boot; I see no reason not to settle immediately. A scout move indicates nothing to the contrary, so I build my first unpronouncable city in place. I start building a worker and researching BW for the forests.

Planned early tech path: Bronze->Agri->AH->Writing

I'm going to keep playing for now, but I'll keep the 4000 BC save handy just in case.

 

[martin026]

I would go Agri, AH then BW. Agri will finish early and you will want to hook up that corn as soon as the worker is finished, same with the pigs. You do not need bronze that quickly, hook up the food first.

 

[VoiceOfUnreason]

Looking only at the screen shot, it would have been reasonable to consider settling SE of your initial position. You lose the stone, but pick up a bunch of extra hills.

Given that you are starting by researching Bronze Working, there's a useful trick you should know about. If you start with a warrior/scout first, an manipulate the tiles a little bit right before you grow, you can have the worker half way completed when Bronze Working is discovered. You can then revolt to Slavery, and whip the worker. Net result is that the worker comes out a turn late, but you get an extra warrior on turn 10.

You may want to defer writing for a bit. No need to decide yet, but your capital will likely be pretty busy with settlers, workers, defense. You don't really need writing until you are ready to construct the library. Given that you are playing the Khmer, it doesn't take too much time to toss it up, just something to keep in mind.

If you decide that the Library can wait, you may also discover that Animal Husbandry can wait. Your worker already has a full slate of work to do (farming the corn, clearing the trees, mining the hills); so the main immediate advantage is discovering the horses.

Given the corn, pigs, and green hills, this city can support a large population very quickly. You may want to consider how you are going to keep them all happy.

Stone is a big advantage for a number of wonders. You might want to sneak a look ahead at the tech tree to figure out where they are, and how they may fit into your plans.

 

[Walliard]

Update - 2500 BC:
Interesting. I played to this point along my originally planned path, but it seems I've been met with some alternate ideas. But first, I'll summarize.

My neighbours are Shaka, Lincoln, Ragnar, and Charlemagne. I've scouted the entire continent, or enough to know that there's nothing big I've missed, so I'm reasonably certain that the other two civs are overseas.

I got a free Scout, and later a Warrior, from huts, so I had no qualms about chopping a Settler right after the initial Worker build. The Warrior was sent back to the capital (renamed "Capital" for clarity) in order to later escort this Settler.

Spoiler The known world, ca. 2875 BC :

You can't see them, but Ragnar's borders are on the east side of that shot. I ended up settling my second city (once again renamed for ease of memory, this time to "Funkytown") in between the copper and rice just SW of Capital. It started by building a Worker.

As of 2500 BC, I'm one turn away from discovering Writing.

Regarding your comments:

-I'll attempt the first 60 turns again tomorrow morning with a different tech path. This has made me realize that my game seldom deviates from something along the lines of "2/3 worker techs, Writing, something Classical". Perhaps I'm too eager to get ahead in tech that I don't get anywhere.

-I feel squeamish about hills for whatever reason, which may have lead to me undervaluing them in the past, but looking at the math I see how they can be useful. Probably those damn Civ3 habits kicking in.

-I disagree on moving the settler SW, as I only gain one extra hill by moving. With the grass hill and the Stone hill to the north, I spend 3 food for 7 hammers, while with the three grass hills I gain, I spend 3 foor for 6 hammers; I'm also one pop closer to the happiness cap.

 

[VoiceOfUnreason]

-I'll attempt the first 60 turns again tomorrow morning with a different tech path. This has made me realize that my game seldom deviates from something along the lines of "2/3 worker techs, Writing, something Classical".

I've gotten a lot of mileage out of replaying starts, so this seems like a reasonable plan.

Did you consider placing Funkytown on the tile north of the copper, where you would also get to make use of the pigs and the gold? If you considered it, what persuaded you to settle to the east?

 

[xanadux]

I like VOU's suggestion of 1SE (not SW). As far as I can tell, this gives you 4 extra grassland hills. If my math is right, you can work 9 mined hills at size 11, which isn't too hard a size to get to. That's 29 production, and with Bureaucracy and a Forge, you will be near 55. That's huge production that early, and you can let your other cities worry about science.

 

[OTAKUjbski]

Even looking at the map, I'd still settle in place (I hate to lose both the 1st turn and the Forest).

Both sites have 10 production hills. SiP has 9 green hills and 1 Plains Hill Stone. 1SE has 10 green hills. Not a substantial enough difference, IMO.

You could prevent some overlap with a Wheat/Stone city in the North and with the Copper city in the West by moving 1SE, but I think using that knowledge kinda defeats the purpose of a replay.​

1. Settle in place.
2. Start Worker.
3. Tech Agriculture -> Animal Husbandry -> Bronze Working.
4. When your borders pop, ensure you work the Plains Hill Stone for the Expansive bonus.
5. Worker should Farm the Corn -> Pasture the Pigs -> Mine a hill -> Chop/Mine a forested hill.
6. Grow to size two building a Warrior.
7. When you pop size 2, begin a Settler (yes, really).
8. Scout out the 'Funkytown' city site. I recommend making this a city (high food & lots of grassland -- possibly 1N of Copper) with Specialists and Cottages (and possibly that gold mine).
9. Pay attention to where your Scout is; make sure he can make it home in time to escort your Settler to the Funkytown city site.
10. Upon completing the Settler, move both the Worker and Settler to Funkytown city site.
11. Grow the Capital to a size equal to the amount of improved tiles in the BFC and/or until your Warrior finishes, then start a Worker.

At this point, your Capital can focus on builds, and Funkytown can focus on .

There seems to be a lack of pre-Calendar resources which is why I'd settle Copper/Gold/Pig/Rice. I'd also make the most of that Stone and build the Pyramids for Representation.

Most of your Capital's hills are forested, which means a lot of chop/mining. I'd try as hard as possible to put half the chops into the Pyramids after the Stone is hooked up and save the rest for the AP.

That being the case, if you settle Funkytown as Copper/Gold/Pig/Rice, you can improve the Pigs and Gold (delay Writing a little) to boost your science rate while teching Masonry -> The Wheel -> Pottery -> Writing -> Mysticism -> Polytheism -> Monotheism (gogo Judaism) -> CoL (gogo CS & Confucianism) -> Theology (gogo AP & Christianity).

The more religions you control, the easier it is to manipulate the world with religion (especially with the AP under your control). Spread your favourite religion to the masses and spread a "heathen" religion to anybody you want 'taken care of'.

And the fewer cities you control, the fewer military units you have to build for defense, and the more Missionaries you can churn out.

If you're worried about missing out on a good 3rd city site, the Stone + Forests should give you enough leeway to churn out a Settler before starting on the Pyramids. I'd settle my 3rd city as another high- city for running specialists.

Your Capital is going to be growing very fast with Pigs, Corn and Grassland Hills, so you may want to build a 2nd Worker in the Capital to help keep up with the chop/mining during the Pyramids building.

Expect Lincoln to Settle his Marble to make a run for The Oracle and/or settle the Horses to make a run for Chariots -- the antithesis to your Axemen.

If you're going to take anybody on, do it early before diplo penalties mount up for "attacking our friend".

Otherwise, Shaka's easy to get along with as long as you share a religion, and Lincoln is just an all-around good guy.


-- my 2

 

[VoiceOfUnreason]

Even looking at the map, I'd still settle in place (I hate to lose both the 1st turn and the Forest).

Both sites have 10 production hills. SiP has 9 green hills and 1 Plains Hill Stone. 1SE has 10 green hills. Not a substantial enough difference, IMO.

This is true, but you don't have the information about the hills hidden to the NW at the time you make the decision to move (or not). My initial comment is more in response to "seeing no reason...", as there is a reason to move (although one that might reasonably be rejected).

 

[Walliard]

Thanks for the advice, everyone!

This is rather embarassing, but I didn't realize until today that mines gave 2 hammers instead of just one. Shows you how averse I've been towards hills, eh? *burns old Civ3 habits again for good measure*

Anyway, I started up again and played to 2500 BC, this time with Agri->AH->BW->Masonry->Wheel as my tech path. Right now I'm about halfway through Wheel. Funkytown was re-settled north of the copper (I don't know how I didn't notice that the first time), and with the gold nearby, making it a commerce city seems natural. But for that I'll need Pottery and Iron Working. Does that sound good?

Also, comparing the two 2500 BC saves, I've accomplished a bit more this time. Higher score, more useful techs, and a Barracks almost finished in Capital.

 

[Cleverbeans]

But for that I'll need Pottery and Iron Working. Does that sound good?

It might, what sort of plans are you considering at the moment? Do you want to start a war early/later? Have you thought about how your leader will best serve you in winning the game? How are you going to develop your empire? Your tech path should support your plan, whatever plan that may be.

 

[Diamondeye]

One note; you could consider an earlt Masonry for stone for Mids and run an SE...

 

[VoiceOfUnreason]

Right now I'm about halfway through Wheel. Funkytown was re-settled north of the copper (I don't know how I didn't notice that the first time), and with the gold nearby, making it a commerce city seems natural. But for that I'll need Pottery and Iron Working. Does that sound good?

Maybe. There are reasons for early Pottery when playing the Khmer (you should figure them out). Iron Working might be able to wait. Without Ironworking, Funkytown can still manage work the gold, the copper, the pigs (no jungle on them, right?) and a couple of cottages by the river.

In other words, maybe Iron Working can wait, and if so there may be a higher priority to address. For instance, it may be more important to get some libraries up than it is to clear a bunch of jungle tiles you aren't going to work right away.

Why are you building a barracks in the capital?

 

[OTAKUjbski]

One note; you could consider an earlt Masonry for stone for Mids and run an SE...

Representation will also help you deal with early (only resource appears to be Gold and the very distant Ivory).

Masonry also puts you on the road to Theocracy, which enables your first preferred victory condition via the Apostolic Palace.

 

[Walliard]

Why are you building a barracks in the capital?

No idea *reloads Autosave, builds Workwe->Warrior->Settler instead*

One note; you could consider an earlt Masonry for stone for Mids and run an SE...

Representation will also help you deal with early (only resource appears to be Gold and the very distant Ivory).

Masonry also puts you on the road to Theocracy, which enables your first preferred victory condition via the Apostolic Palace.

Step ahead of ya. My second worker is already quarrying the stone.

It might, what sort of plans are you considering at the moment? Do you want to start a war early/later? Have you thought about how your leader will best serve you in winning the game? How are you going to develop your empire? Your tech path should support your plan, whatever plan that may be.

Diplo victory mean I'll need a lot of pop, so I should expand and grow, which Suryavarman is great at. Pottery/Granary will help with food and health, Pyramids/Rep gives me extra happiness... I could head for Mathematics to get Barays and maybe the Hanging Gardens, but that might be overkill as far as health is concerned.

I'm not very good at early rushes (probably too late for that now anyway) so I like to put off starting a war until Construction at the earliest. However, I could settle such that I stop Ragnar's westward expansion, which could lead to a war between him and either me or Lincoln. At that point I could push him back and vassalize him for extra votes.

Either way, I doubt I can go wrong with Pottery->Writing for now.

Now then, to the settler that, as of 2400 BC, is in production:

Spoiler Guess who discovered the strategy layer? :

Site A gives me horses and eventually dye, along with several grass hills that I missed with the capital. However, it has no food resources and only two farmable tiles (three if I farm the Dye). It also works for cutting off Ragnar, assuming Abe doesn't sign open borders with him(he's Annoyed at him, so this shouldn't be an issue).

Site B has rice and Khmer's much needed ivory, but the former is unavailable without IW. In fact, the whole site is even more IW-dependant than Funkytown, and might take a while to become reasonably productive.

I'm thinking Site A, though I'm also thinking I need to clear that fog to the NW. Whoops.

 

[VoiceOfUnreason]

Why are you building a barracks in the capital?

No idea *reloads Autosave, builds Workwe->Warrior->Settler instead*

I see.

I'll point out that there were possible good answers to the question. "No idea" wasn't one of them, of course - auto-pilot is not conductive to good play.

 

[martin026]

Why not move that horse city two to the east? It will grab the corn and horse and dye, as well as a couple hills. I might not be looking at the map right though. You will have three peaks, but those are the breaks sometimes

 

[AlessioCerci]

You will lose the horse/dye if you do that martin026.

 

[martin026]

You will lose the horse/dye if you do that martin026.

Yep, You are right, I saw it wrong.
Well, if the point is to block Viking expansion that direction, it might be better to place the city to either grab the corn, or the wheat in the south. I would probably still move the city to the two east spot, and be able to eventually grab the horses with a couple border pops. With copper already, the strategic resource can wait if the goal is to box the VIkings in.