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Postmortem on Mueller

Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by Birdjaguar, May 4, 2019.

  1. Birdjaguar

    Birdjaguar Hanafubuki Retired Moderator Supporter

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    Per @onejayhawk 's suggestion; Some interesting questions have arisen since Mueller completed his report:

    • Is Trump a lying, tax cheating, womanizing buffoon?
    • Did he obstruct justice?
    • Is he still obstructing justice?
    • Did Barr lie to Congress?
    • Did Barr try to mislead the public?
    • Should Barr step down?
    • Is Trump good for American Democracy?
    • Is the President above the law?
    • Should those who don't comply with Congressional subpoenas be arrested?
    • Is there a path forward that actually helps unite our severely divided politics?
    • Should the House use the "power of the purse" to reign in the white House?
    • Will the State of NY bring Trump down?
    • Should trump's tax returns go to Congress?
    • Should right-wing hate sites be banned from social media?
     
    Last edited: May 4, 2019
  2. Berzerker

    Berzerker Deity

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    I'm still waiting to see Mueller testify

    but then people like Jimmy Dore reminds me Mueller was one of the people shoveling WMD BS at us to invade Iraq and wonder why I ever thought he was an honorable man. Oh yeah, because the media continually told me he was when they thought he'd nail Trump to the wall.

    I dont have a problem with Barr yet and while obstructing justice has a legal component, its also a moral matter. So what justice did Trump obstruct? I see this in much the same way as Benghazi, some deception was involved but nothing that rises to the level of hype. Its just partisan politics as usual.

    • Is Trump a lying, tax cheating, womanizing buffoon?
    not a buffoon
    • Did he obstruct justice?
    • Is he still obstructing justice?
    Thats subjective, he'd argue he was trying to spare his people a 'witch hunt'. If Mueller comes up with a few people lying and that is in fact the extent of the crimes it becomes harder to mistake a political vendetta for a pursuit of justice.
    • Did Barr lie to Congress?
    • Did Barr try to mislead the public?
    • Should Barr step down?
    He should have been banned from government for his role in helping Iran Contra criminals off the hook. But wrt this situation, I haven't seen him lie.
    • Is Trump good for American Democracy?
    He's attacking the establishment, so yes.
    • Is the President above the law?
    The law aint going anywhere, if they find something serious they'll get him when he leaves office.
    • Should those who don't comply with Congressional subpoenas be arrested?
    I dont know, depends on what Congress is doing. If this was the hunt for commies and Joe McCarthy was sending them out he should have been arrested. Ironically this is similar, 'have you ever had contacts with Russian nationals?'
    • Is there a path forward that actually helps unite our severely divided politics?
    Yes, every congressional district should be drawn for one purpose, competition. No safe seats, no partisan gerrymandering, no intentional concentration of voters based on ideology. Make these people represent both sides.
    • Should the House use the "power of the purse" to reign in the white House?
    By spending less money?
    • Will the State of NY bring Trump down?
    I think so, but I thought Mueller would have found something. Maybe he did and 'farmed' it out to other jurisdictions.
    • Should trump's tax returns go to Congress?
    No, Congress is a sieve. If tax/law enforcement finds something then Congress should be told.
    • Should right-wing hate sites be banned from social media?
    Thats gonna end well, the response will be banning left wing hate sites and CFC will be no longer.
     
    Birdjaguar likes this.
  3. innonimatu

    innonimatu Deity

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    CFC is actually pretty good at allowing people to defend whatever their positions. There are majorities and it's "hard" to go against there majorities, but seldom are people who argue honestly their things being slapped down.
     
  4. Old Hippy

    Old Hippy Deity

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    join the queue... :)
    just a subscription post...
     
  5. Berzerker

    Berzerker Deity

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    I agree... I only meant the precedent of shutting sites down based on 'hate' would inevitably include CFC because of...well... the left wing hate. I have to correct one thing about my cure for the disease of political polarization, some safe seats are unavoidable.
     
  6. Birdjaguar

    Birdjaguar Hanafubuki Retired Moderator Supporter

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    I laugh every time someone talks of "left wing hate". There are extremists at both ends of the spectrum, but most of the passion on the left is all about Trump and their venom for his destruction of US democracy. It is a pretty recent thing. Right wing hate against liberals is decades old and not focused on anyone in particular , but changes targets as the seasons change. Talk radio, white supremacist websites, Republican talking points, all have spewed anti liberal hate for years. As Republicans who vehemently attacked Trump in 2016 have become his hardcore supporters (mostly Congressional members) "Left wing hate" has spread to them too.

    There is a huge difference between Liberals hating Trump and Conservatives hating Liberals. The political hate in this country was started by and is continuously fueled by the right wing media. It is their only way to stay in power.
     
    Last edited: May 5, 2019
  7. Narz

    Narz keeping it real

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    Womanizing wasn't part of the report was it? Also aren't we above slut-shaming in 2019?

    And yeah obviously Barr lied.

    What is the definition of "hate site"? "Social media" is not public commons, its owned by corporations so they can ban whoever they want.
     
  8. Birdjaguar

    Birdjaguar Hanafubuki Retired Moderator Supporter

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    Cohen was integral to much of what Trump will endure this year and the only reason Cohen came into the picture was because he was connected to Trump screwing women who weren't his wife. I certainly didn't mention any women. I just stated a fact about Trump.
     
    Thorvald of Lym likes this.
  9. Berzerker

    Berzerker Deity

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    There's plenty of hate on the right no doubt but we have people here at CFC who advocate killing Republicans/conservatives and assorted enemies. If I have to draw a line on what is or isn't hate speech violence crosses it. If sites allowing hate speech from left or right are to be shut down CFC will be among the casualties.

    What was Barr's lie? I agree corporations can regulate speech on their dime but if they appear hypocritical about enforcement they're inviting trouble.
     
  10. Birdjaguar

    Birdjaguar Hanafubuki Retired Moderator Supporter

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    I don't recall ever seeing a post here where a CFC member has advocated killing Republicans. I would expect that such a post would be quickly removed.
     
  11. Berzerker

    Berzerker Deity

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    I dont know if the posts were removed, but I've seen it a few times and I didn't get the impression it was tongue in cheek. Anyway, I'm suspicious of venturing down the 'ban hate speech' path because people wont be able to agree on what it is and will just end up being another partisan issue. I can agree advocating 'death to the infidels' is hate speech but the devil is in the details... or the gray areas where hatred becomes 'I dont like them'.
     
  12. onejayhawk

    onejayhawk Afflicted with reason

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    Now that Mueller and his backers have played their last card, Trump seems to be signalling a counter-offensive. The first shot is a letter from White House Council Emmit Flood to AG barr, see below. It raises several points of legal concern with both the investigation and the report itself. Think of it as a letter from the legal office your firm, to your boss's boss, saying that you were painting outside the lines.
    https://www.cnn.com/2019/05/02/politics/white-house-letter-to-ag-barr/index.html

    In practice, this is express approval from the White House to nail hides to walls.

    J
     
  13. Berzerker

    Berzerker Deity

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    I found the 'this does not exonerate the President' to be problematic

    I love Kamala's line of inquiry about the WH 'suggesting' Barr investigate anyone, she had him on the ropes when the answer was a simple yes or no. "Yeah, maybe not" doesn't inspire confidence.
     
  14. Birdjaguar

    Birdjaguar Hanafubuki Retired Moderator Supporter

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    You could see him squirm for time: please repeat the question; let's talk about suggest, ummm and so on. Clearly it was a yes he couldn't admit to.
     
  15. Berzerker

    Berzerker Deity

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    That was my impression... and thats the kind of stuff they should nail Trump on. I just watched a repeat of it on a replay of Maddow. Hem haw, eh, what was the question?
     
  16. Timsup2nothin

    Timsup2nothin Another drone in the hive mind

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    Berzerker is undoubtedly taking stuff out of context and playing for pity points. I recently said that the only likely way to salvage the US at this point was to put all the conservatives to the sword. That wasn't advocating anything, since I don't really give a rap about salvaging the US, it was just an observation. But undoubtedly that is at least part of what he is whining about.
     
  17. Narz

    Narz keeping it real

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    For one he said he didnt know what Muller thought of his cliff notes version of his report even tho he clearly knew since Muller sent him a letter about it.
     
  18. onejayhawk

    onejayhawk Afflicted with reason

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    If that was actually from Mueller. It doesn't read like his prose. Also it makes little sense since Mueller and Barr jointly did the redaction. Someone else on the team more likely and Mueller signed off on it. In that sense it is from him.

    J
     
  19. Berzerker

    Berzerker Deity

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    Thats one of the things I want to see Mueller address. According to Barr Mueller was not happy with how the media received or interpreted his 'summary' and wanted the investigator's summaries released. Barr declined because he wanted to release the report altogether. I can see why the WH and probably Barr want to frame the report to help Trump but its inevitable Mueller would be called upon to express complaints with how Barr handled it. Until then I dont know if Barr lied about the letter's purpose.

    I was thinking of Lex, but yeah, thats hate speech too. So when the KKK and neo-Nazis 'observe' the country would be better off if black and Jewish people were put to the sword, that aint hate speech? How would you feel if they were killing the conservative black and Jewish people?
     
  20. Timsup2nothin

    Timsup2nothin Another drone in the hive mind

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    Speaking of hate speech, why do you try to have conversations with people who hate you? No one else left?
     

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