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Power of Agricultural trait?

Discussion in 'Civ3 - Strategy & Tips' started by QuantumEleven, Apr 7, 2005.

  1. catchsomezzz

    catchsomezzz Life is recursive.

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    The concensus seems to say either the Celtics or the Iroquois are the two best Aggie civs. Both are also similar in that they have two of the best early units in the game - Gallic Swordsmen & Mounted Warriors.

    So, it depends on your preference of their second trait: Religious for the Celts vs. Commercial for the Iroquois.

    I've actually never played as the Celts (the Random Setting Gods haven't been so kind as to bless me). But to me, religious is just middle of the road - useful & better than some traits but not as important as some other traits.

    In my opinion, the Iroquois is a 1st Tier civ - the Commercial trait is severely underrated by many as its benefits aren't immediately obvious (i.e., it's not the "immediate gratification trait" such as giving free techs at the start of the era or half price buildings).

    The benefits of being Commercial start to manifest when your empire get bigger, especially after getting out of despotism. But it's more of a late game power - when many of your cities will be less corrupted in shield & gold production.

    And it's that slight savings of 1-2 gold and shields (excluding the additional gold bonus in the center of every city) that allow Commerical civs to churn out many things - buildings, units, wonders - slightly faster, while funneling more gold into research/spend on other things.

    You can color me biased since I'm playing the Iroquois right now. But then again, I've never played them before (or considered playing them before) this current game. They were assigned as my random Civ and overall, I'm impressed - they can both be an early game power with the Aggie trait and the Mounted Warrior unit, as well as a late game power (I'm in the late industrial age in my current game).
     
  2. Choffy

    Choffy One more turn

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    Irroquois or Sumerian for their great UU.
    I play 1/2 of my games within of these 2 civs.

    Agricultural + Commercial is a great couple for short and long term boost.
     
  3. sorky

    sorky Warlord

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    I have to disagree for the +5 food (+6 for agri). +6 means 2 turns for growing: +6/+4! AND, an other town grows every 3turns/4 turns/3 turns instead of 5 turns without switching the food bonus.
     
  4. Drakan

    Drakan Voluntas Omnia Vincit

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    :lol: :lol: :lol:

    Talking agricultutal civs ...

    Well I'm in love with the Dutch :love:. Being seafaring and agricultural is great. But If you add to that their great UU swiss-mercenary with its 4 defense that renders it invincible almost until the arrival of military tradition. I think their great for Deity level, almost makes the game all too easy, almost. :p

    Now If I were more in a conquering mood from the outset I'd choose the Celts (gallic swordsmen) or the Iroquois (MW, need I say more ?).

    Sumerians are great for research.

    Food = power in C3C
     
  5. QuantumEleven

    QuantumEleven Lightsider

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    Wow - so much information!! Thanks very much to everyone who replied - I'm off to kick some AI, erm, backside with the Celts...!

    Cheers, everyone - CFC is brilliant, I don't know of any other games board where people are so friendly, helpful and funny (paging Sparta :D ) - much appreciated! :beer: :goodjob:
     
  6. sprang

    sprang Warlord

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    You're forgetting three things.
    1. AGR river cities avoid the Despotism penalty.
    2. +1 food in the center works EVERY TURN.
    3. Irrigated deserts mean floodplain starts are awesome.


    1: explained by others.

    2:
    Assume you have a decent start location: lots of tiles in your city radius that, under despotism, will produce 2 food. Of course, each citizen needs 2 food. A non-AGR civ will have 2 food in the center square, and two from each tile being worked, for +2 fpt, growth every 10 turns up to size 6, every 20 up to size 12. When the city grows, it gets a new 2-food eating citizen, and a new 2-food producing tile - it still has +2fpt. An AGR civ, with that +1 food in the center will have +3fpt. That means growth every 7 turns up to size 6, every 14 up to size 12.

    Turns to hit size 6: Non-AGR 60, AGR 42.
    Turns to hit size 12: Non-AGR 180, AGR 126!

    Alternative logic: +1 food means you grow at the same rate as other civs, when you divert a worker to a hill or forest. In start positions without many bonus grasslands, that means +1 or +2 shields per turn. In the ancient age, or with small cities, that's HUGE - far more powerful than the Industrious city bonus trait, which only kicks in above size 13.

    3:
    To my mind, the worst part of floodplain starts is that they are shield-poor and surrounded by deserts, and so they are very bad for expansion. AGR civs treat all the desert as plains - sufficient food in Despotism, and shields too. The desert is not a barrier, its just lots of room to expand!
     
  7. Breunor

    Breunor Deity

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    Alexfrog,

    I guess some of the reasons we have differences here is playing style. Of course, if I even tried to play on Diety I would probably restart if I didn't have everything perfect.

    But I play everything on random. And my record with Agri civilizations isn't any better than with other traits.

    CLEARLY given my favorite map, I would take an agri with a river. But I don't think we should grade how good a characteristic (make suggestions to designers) based on this.

    So, my question as an advanced beginner is: Is Agri far better on pure random maps than the others, or is the benefit manifest in the hardest maps only when having an optimal position is critical?

    Breunor
     
  8. Professor-Gamer

    Professor-Gamer Chieftain

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    A small note on deserts:

    if you don't like the "plains"-term, think of desert as a mined non-bonus grass. And I think every nation that has a lot of grassland, is very powerful.

    My 0.02$.
     
  9. Choffy

    Choffy One more turn

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    [So, my question as an advanced beginner is: Is Agri far better on pure random maps than the others, or is the benefit manifest in the hardest maps only when having an optimal position is critical?]

    -> I think that you have a high probability of starting on a river if you are an agricultural civ (don't know the probability yet). So on random maps, I find agricultural civs better (I select them when playing Multiplayer where there is no restart allowed)
     
  10. Breunor

    Breunor Deity

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    Choffy,

    Thanks for the input! I've found that I don't get rivers more often with Agri's, but I haven't played often enough to have a strong feeling. My own record isn't as good with Agri's on the level I win about half the time, but I'm interested in the experience other people have.

    Best wishes,

    Breunor
     
  11. Darkness

    Darkness Shadow creature

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    What consensus? :confused:
    I'll immediately agree that MW and GS are great early UU's but GS are very expensive. Com (Iroqs) is a great trait, but Rel (Celts) is not that good IMHO.
    I'd take Sumeria over the Celts every time. Sci is better than Rel, though GS is better than EW. But the EW isn't a bad unit at all!
     
  12. Doc Tsiolkovski

    Doc Tsiolkovski Deity

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    For the mid-levels, I would agree with that.
    For higher levels, Sumeria and Dutch outshine Celts.
    But, I for one would call all 4 Civs 1st tiers. Nice traits (REL isn't may favorite, admittedly), good UUs all.
    That leaves only 3 AGR Civs that ain't great...Inca (horrible UU), Maya (horrible UU, bad second trait), Aztecs (mediocre).
     
  13. budweiser

    budweiser King of the Beers

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    Doc- Have you ever tried the Inca? They are capable of the fastest start of any civ. Those Chasqui scouts are the toughest men in pink skirts you will ever see. They can leap tall mountains with a single bound. They just dont stop, they kill barbs when a normal scout would die. They give you an extension to your expansion phase allowing you to expose more land, meet more civs and make more trades.

    I feel that the civs that were altered or introduced in C3C were supercharged and somehow have a leg up over their vanilla and PTW counterparts. The possible exception being portugal.
     
  14. Darkness

    Darkness Shadow creature

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    Inca: It isn't so much that the Chasqui scout is a bad unit. IMHO the problem is that it replaces a regular scout an costs twice as much... :( That makes the Inca an expansionist civs that can't explore as fast as normal EXP civs. Which kind of destroys the whole trait.
    Maya: Don't agree about the trait. The JT sucks, but Industrious (even toned down for C3C) is still one of the four best traits, IMHO
    Aztecs: Agreed. :)
     
  15. Pfeffersack

    Pfeffersack Deity

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    I wouldn't even agree that the Javeleen Thrower is horrible.On higher levels, yes...but on Emperor or Monarch you can get a lot of barbarian slaves, if you set barb strength to raging.
     
  16. budweiser

    budweiser King of the Beers

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    The Inca start with a normal scout. I think the agricultural trait will help you pay for the chasqui fairly quickly and you don't need to make more than half a dozen scouts anyway. I think the movement bonus gets you out farther in the end.
     
  17. Doc Tsiolkovski

    Doc Tsiolkovski Deity

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    Note I was careful enough to call Inca, Maya and Aztecs "not great", instead of "bad" :). There is still a lot that speaks for them - but, compared to Dutch/Sumeria/Iros/Celts, they are 2nd tiers.
     
  18. Jopedamus I

    Jopedamus I Immortality is reality

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    Sumeria and Iroquois are THE best civs in the game (except archipelago, where Dutch is best). I also think that Mayans are great, regardless of their average UU. Agr+ind-trait combo helps hugely in early game (growth) that is the most important part in the game. I would go even as far as ranking them better than Celts because religious is not very useful trait and I have never liked GS as much as some other people seem to like.. Still, EVERY civ that has agricultural trait is a top-tier, because its so much better than any other trait. Unfortunately...
     
  19. Darkness

    Darkness Shadow creature

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    I saw that, don't worry! :)

    Though I'd rate the Maya above the Celts and the Dutch, but I think that's just a matter of preference (both in playstyle and in game type)
     

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