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Power of Creative Civ AI's; and Wang Kon...?

Discussion in 'Civ4 - General Discussions' started by DMOC, Feb 4, 2008.

  1. Diamondeye

    Diamondeye So Happy I Could Die

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    It's a complicated issue, because it does not only rely on the traits. Most Creative leaders hae a really good AI personality. And Wan Kon has a really bad one.

    Oh, and concerning Sitting Bull, he is nearly always a loser because he is the way he is, but if he is left alone for some time (not isolated, just not war), he can get to be a massive enemy.
     
  2. jray

    jray King

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    I have no clue how multiplayer with AI's works, but at least in single player, there is no such thing as an "AI Difficulty." All of the AI modifiers are completely dependent on the human's difficulty level. For example, if the human is playing Monarch, then all AI's get free Archery and an extra Archer and a 20% work rate bonus. If the human is playing Emperor, then all AI's get free Hunting+Archery, free extra Archer and Scout, and a 50% work rate bonus. All AI bonuses/penalties are built in to the human difficulty level.

    So I'm curious, how does this work in multiplayer?
     
  3. Silence101

    Silence101 King

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    Creative is a powerful early game trait - extremely powerful. It helps AI's establish a strong position in the early game. A strong early game position compounds as the game continues... assuming that the available land decent, Creative AI's will have more land, and thus more production, commerce, and resources, giving them the ability to expand, conquere, tech, and build faster. This can create a sizable advantage by the mid-game and later.
     
  4. jray

    jray King

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    Agreed. The high-culture cities also make the AI less likely to become the target of a human. I think Gilgamesh is perhaps the ultimate AI opponent, being Cre/Pro with high-culture cities defended by CG1-D1 archers. Gotta think twice before axe-rushing that. While he doesn't tech as fast as Financial leaders or settle as fast as Imperialistic ones, he does tend to form a stable core in the early game, resist and save money from those Ziggurats. Well, I guess he does also have a couple weakness: he spams Vultures that are only really valuable on offense, in lieu of more protective Archers, and falls prey to Wonder addiction sometimes.
     
  5. Sian

    Sian Emperor

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    well ... i'm in the middle of a Huge Marathon game as Etiophia on Noble (easymode though since i manged to axe my two neighbours before they got archers) ... and the only AI that can somewhat keep up with tech is Wang Kon even though his starting area is bad (only one worse is Mongolia who started on a 5 tilte pennesula with a mountain blocking the rest of the island) ... okay it might help him a little that his placed in the middle of everyone and founded Budism which have become the dominant religion ... only ones not budists are me, Greek (confusists together with me) and Gandhi (hinduist owners)

    of my knowlegde Wang Kon will do fine as long as he doesn't have a warmonger or massivly explanding as nextdoor neightbor
     
  6. d.a.oconnell

    d.a.oconnell Chieftain

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    I find Zara to be one of the best AI's in the game. He generally always does very well unless I early war him. Creative and Organized... he's a tech monster and generally grabs a lot of land. Anytime I meet him I try to wipe him out asap.
     
  7. Sian

    Sian Emperor

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    ... and the longer you can stall Astronomy the better are you looking in terms of Cultural victory ... 25% might not be much for a newly born city ... but if you'll get some cultural going early on they are really helpful
     
  8. TheLastOne36

    TheLastOne36 Deity

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    I think is the expansion. All civs that get land quickly end up strong.

    Which means creative and impieralistic civs. But for some reason Im[ieralistic civs never seem to want more and more cities(except for joao)

    Joao is civ 4's top city rexxer! and he's always at the top of the table to with creative civs.

    Maybe i'll make a game with all creative civs, and joao.
     
  9. DMOC

    DMOC Mathematician

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    I was thinking of doing some tests this weekend or during president's week. I could fire up some random CONTINENT maps, standard sized with the typical seven AI civilizations. I will probably preselect Wang Kon for almost every game I play along with creative civs. I will also check worldbuilder after everyone has settled their capitals to see where the civs are. If Wang Kon or any creative civ that I have selected is on my continent, I will either destroy their capital and recreate the capital in the other continent with the same units as well so gameplay is affected minimally, or move my capital to the other continent. I want to see what happens with creative civs and wang kon on other continents.

    So maybe, game 1 could be like this:

    Wang Kon, Kublai Khan preselected to start on their own continent, along with 5 other non creative civs. Optimal placement would be wang, kublai, and a middle of the pack non creative AI (Peter works very well for this). Of course, they will all not be on my starting continent. Speed will probably be Normal to speed things up, and difficulty will range from Noble to Immortal (don't know what difficulty level is optimal.

    Then maybe I could do Wang Kon and ... Louis XIV/Pericles/Hatshepsut/Gilgamesh/Willem/Zara etc.

    I could also pair up any creative civ along with one warmonger (Shaka for instance) on their own continent to compare with non creative civs to see the result.

    This is all, assuming, time permitting. And yes, I will use worldbuilder for every game I test to check for any obviously overpowered starts (I may very well remove any gold mines from capitals) to provide an even playing field.
     
  10. Diamondeye

    Diamondeye So Happy I Could Die

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    My guess is that the highest difficulty dictates what the AIs start with, and anyone below noble still get their bonuses.

    Yeah, ZY is dangerous, although I find him a bit inept at diplomacy - last game I played he founded Taoism and converted, effectiely disconnecting him from techtrades with other nations. He even had had the Christian AP (although I took it :devil:).

    I have noticed this aswell. Try playing as Joao II yourself and really REX. Did it once on a LAN (buddy was Hatty), and I went city-crazy, hitting 30%:research: with courthouses. Played well, nobody tried to bully me and I actually defeated India and Vikings later on.
     
  11. Diamondeye

    Diamondeye So Happy I Could Die

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    My guess is that the highest difficulty dictates what the AIs start with, and anyone below noble still get their bonuses.

    Yeah, ZY is dangerous, although I find him a bit inept at diplomacy - last game I played he founded Taoism and converted, effectiely disconnecting him from techtrades with other nations. He even had had the Christian AP (although I took it :devil:).

    I have noticed this aswell. Try playing as Joao II yourself and really REX. Did it once on a LAN (buddy was Hatty), and I went city-crazy, hitting 30%:science: with courthouses. Played well, nobody tried to bully me and I actually defeated India and Vikings later on.
     
  12. InFlux5

    InFlux5 King

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    I think it's fine for some AIs to be weak, especially if they were historically a small or weak civ (e.g. Korea, Native Americans.)
     
  13. CHEESE!

    CHEESE! On a long nostalgia trip

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    Well France under Louis XIV wasnt that super-powered was it?
     
  14. DMOC

    DMOC Mathematician

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    Okay, I rolled up a test game this weekend. I was Ramesses, game speed Normal, difficulty monarch, and I ended up alone on my continent with Gandhi. On the other, 5 civ continent, Wang Kon and Kublai were quite close, although Wang had a REALLY good floodplains start with iron in his cross... Kublai was kind of boxed in by Washington so Kublai took 4 of his cities. Frederick was the strongest of all the AI's, vassalizing Washington as well as Peter who was nerfed by a tundra start.

    Overall, from this game, I see that Wang Kon does do well, provided the conditions. I kind of judged him too soon, I guess. We'll see in a few more test games.

    Screenshots:

    Spoiler :





    By the way...Kublai's score was, I think, a hundred points or two hundred points above Wang. He wasn't near to Frederick, that's for sure. And me...I had between 5000 and 6000...grabbing that bottom island really helped. (The screenshot is cropped to keep my name private.)


    The AI rankings were as follows:

    1. Frederick. I dont' know how, but he somehow vassalized Washington AND Peter...impressive. And he gave me a run for my money in research. Frederick vassalized washington by taking 2 of his cities...and Kublai actually took 4 American cities and didn't vassalize him...hm....

    2. Wang Kon. So he does play well. I never saw his full potential since Kublai asked me to join him in a war vs Wang so I nuked him 13 times as evident from the screenshots provided.

    3. Kublai. Had a mediocre start without horses nearby and was locked into wars with Washington and Wang. He probably would have lost to Wang in his wars even though they traded cities MANY times but I gave him help.

    4. Peter, who got nerfed by a tundra start.

    5. Washington. Absolutely horrible, wound up with 3 cities.

    6. Gandhi. Down to 2 cities and was my vassal.
     
  15. Diamondeye

    Diamondeye So Happy I Could Die

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    He was a very good general, I have heard. Although he lived a little too luxurious, so the peasants weren't very happy with him. Among his luxurious expenditures, Versailles and it's constant maintenance is a rather good example.
     
  16. DMOC

    DMOC Mathematician

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    Actually, I'm not sure on wether France was superpowered under him. Louis basically tried to curtail the power of everyone but himself--hence the absolute monarchy that he is most famous for. I don't think he was that good a general because whenever he fought wars, there would be several contries allying themselves into an anti-France coalition (remember the War of the Spanish Succession?). If you compare him to, say Bismarck, Bismarck always made sure to isolate his enemy when waging a war. Bismarck's second war verses Austria is a pretty good example of this; Bismarck got Russia to agree on neutrality in the case of a war and he also got Napoleon III of France to stay neutral by providing vague promises of territory.

    What I think of France is that it would have definitely been better off without waging the highly costly wars Louis waged.

    Weird thing is, though, the current Louis AI goes for cultural victories and not domination. Actually, no AI really goes for domination, but you get the picture.
     
  17. TheLastOne36

    TheLastOne36 Deity

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    I think it's how creative/stonehenge civs settle:

    Peter is not creative, but in my game he had stonehenge, and this is how he settled:

    (ignore my cheat of giving myself an explorer, and i'm using a map that puts floodplains on any tile next to a source of fresh water(lake or river, much more realistic)
    Yah, he settles like a human. The Creative culture bonus/per city and the stonehenge's free monuments let the city expand it's borders before the ai settles another city. This makes it so that the AI doesn't settle crappy cities that overlap with other cities just so they fill up tiles quicker.

    Joao however has crappy city sites but alot of cities, he get's his high score from the amount of cities he has, not from what his cities produce. It's just because he's the best AI rexer in the game.

    Therefore, Creative/Stonehenge civs settle better sites that pay of at the end, get more resources, and don't have overlapping cities.
     
  18. lovetramy

    lovetramy Warlord

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    Cathy is the best AI , always top score in all games I play with her ... Cre + Imp = mass land always
    and she has nice personality too ( kind of :D )
    Sitting Bull definitely the worse . In my recent Prince game he has more land then other civ . Ok its 1800's and he researching .... Education :D dont know what the hell he doing though . but my tanks and bomber like it :D
     
  19. Lance of Llanwy

    Lance of Llanwy King

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    France was, for a very long time, by far the strongest European state, as evidenced by its ability to run roughshod over basically the whole continent a century after Louis XIV's time. England and the rest of the European states were chiefly interested in maintaining the balance of power, always precarious with such a mighty state as France in their midst, and this is why France often ended up fighting broad alliances(supporting France, naturally, running entirely counter to balance of power). Bismarck was able to manage it not only because was a peerless diplomat, but also because France was traditionally isolated.

    As for Louis XIV himself, he was a control freak precisely because of a rebellion when he was something like 10-12 years old that forced him to flee the palace in Paris. He never got over that, and his desire to punish Paris for his insolence and simultaneously tame the French nobility led to him building Versaille, complete with archaic rules of etiquette, and such odd priviledges as witnessing the King shave. Strictly speaking, it did, indeed, drastically reduce French stability, for the small price of millions of dollars and reducing the noble class to skill-less buffoons jockeying over who would escort the king to his bed-chambers every night. He also revoked an earlier royal edict of tolerance for Protestants. He became downright puritanical(in the Cromwell sense) towards the end of his reign. Mechanically, he laid the framework for perpetuation of absolute monarchy in France, but his successor and second grand-son, Louis XV was frankly a terrible monarch, mostly because he spent his time organizing his own private brothel and anything that wasn't ruling the country....
     
  20. Thrasybulus

    Thrasybulus Chieftain

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    Not long after BtS came out I kept track of all of my results in similar games (Large map, 11 AIs, Hemispheres, Monarch, no tech brokering). At the time I was winning on Monarch only about a third of the time so these results aren't unduly influenced by civs getting whacked for startiing out next to me.

    18 civs appeared in at least 3 of these games and their average rankings at the end of the game are:

    Top Tier (average 1st to 4th place): Zara Yaqob, Pacal, Willem, Joao, Mansa Musa

    Mid Tier (average 5th to 8th place): Bismarck, Justinian, Pericles, Gilgamesh, Tokugawa, Hammurabi, Augustus

    Bottom Tier (average 9th to 12th place): Mehmed, Gandhi, Charlemagne, Ragnar, Isabella, and dead last....Montezuma.

    Of course score isn't everything. I think Willem's worst result was one in which he won a cultural victory.

    It would take a huge amount of results to really make anything of this and some leaders are obviously suited to certain types of maps, but I might start doing this again on Emperor on which I rarely win.
     

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