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Power of rush buy, for all CE lovers.

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Succession Games' started by Mutineer, Jul 17, 2007.

  1. Mutineer

    Mutineer Chieftain

    Joined:
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    Power of rush buy.

    Idea of this variant partially stolen from …., but come from my own wish to prove power of rush buy. I read statements that rush buy are over nerfed, which I believe is incorrect.
    If I am not mistaken Town produce 7 gold + 1 shield in the right civics.
    With full commerce % available at the time of democracy:
    Banks + market + grocery = 100% town can produce 14 gold. With a price of rush buy at 3 gold /shield that mean with rush buy town can produce 5.5 shield/turn. Plain mine at the same time can give max 4*1.25(forge) = 5 shields or 6 shields for buildings with organized religion.

    So, in the time between banking to Assembly line town is as good shield producer as any other tie. Now, I found it is a bit difficult to devise rules which let as to have level field of play early in the game and do not demand to mach of micro management on each turn. So, at the end I devised rules most suitable to force as to use rush buy for most of our shields, why still keep as competitive on high level of play.

    1) Slavery is only permitted until better civics are discovered. After that we have to adopt other civics.
    2) After entering Renaissance age Only 2 cities permitted to have mines/workshops/mills. HE city for military production and Iron work city for wander production. (Exception, we can always mine special resources). In all other cities the only permitted normal (Non special resources) improvements are farms, cottages and mill. Windmills can only be used on plain or tundra/ice hills, where cottages/farms can not be build. Mills can only build on tundra forest, where no any other improvements are possible.
    3) Nationalism is not permitted.


    I want to do it on emperor/immortal level. Personally I believe drafting is necessary for Immortal level, with some rare exceptions, but may be we can do it with out.

    Map – continents, to make sure we do have to research well into renaissance age.
    Difficulty – emperor or immortal may be start with emperor.
    Speed – normal.
    No any other special settings.
    Civ/leader – to be decided.

    I expect players who as minimum comfortable on playing on emperor level.

    Winning condition:
    I hope land on our continent would not be enough for domination and no draft make military way less attractive on high level. Power of the rush buy is most pronounced between banking and assembly line. So, Most natural winning conditions would be diplomatic and cultural.
    I am open to suggestions here.
     
  2. sunrise089

    sunrise089 Not that good

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    Not a sign up since I'm not "comfortable" on Emperor, but a few thoughts:

    I think a town can generate MORE than 7 gold - Financial leader + town + printing press + river + Free Speech: 9 commerce I think.

    In general, I'm not your varient is restrictive enough for a peaceful game. If you deley discovering labour civics after slavery, you can whip for a good while. Then you still can produce military and wonders from two cites, AND you can produce hammers from mines on special resources. I'm not sure for a peaceful game that will be entirely limiting.

    One more thing Mutineer: I know you're the master of whipping/drafting, but if you're right about "drafting is necessary for Immortal level" I need to really revise my game :) I just don't really see how drafting can be necessary - sure it provides a production boost during a certain era, but unless you want to declare war right then, why is it so important?
     
  3. Jet

    Jet No, no, please. Please.

    Joined:
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    I know you don't like Financial, but for a builder game I'd suggest Mansa Musa (Financial/Mint) or Elizabeth (Financial/Stock Exchange). Elizabeth might be stronger, because I think the restrictions would make Spiritual less powerful. I think Cultural would not be a very interesting builder game, since you only need to buy Cathedrals, but Space Race or Diplomatic would be interesting. I think the most interesting would be Domination or military Diplomatic; for that, Churchill (Charismatic/Stock Exchange/Protective), Hannibal (Financial/Charismatic), or Ragnar (Financial/Aggressive/Trading Post/Amphibious) would be good.

    Eventually, of course, Universal Suffrage would give a significant production boost directly from the Town hammers.

    Since rush buying requires the Pyramids (semi-random) or Democracy (late), I'm not sure "Banking to Assembly Line" is exactly the right way to think about it. For the same reason, I think the cottage spam and Slavery/Nationalism restrictions would shape the game more than the use of rush buying itself. In other words, what would have a greater effect than rush buying is having high commerce and low production during the period when rush buying is not possible. On the other hand, the longer the game lasted, the more rush buying would actually be used. So I think Space Race is probably easiest, and Domination probably the most interesting.
     
  4. sooooo

    sooooo Chieftain

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    Not a sign-up but a question:

    OK, but that's assuming you spend no money on science. Or are you using the extra 2 food you get from the town over a plains mine to count towards more science? Plains mine gets slightly less production than a universal suffrage town assuming at 0% science, true. But 0% science has a disadvantage, right? Plains mine gets production no matter what science rate is, but I guess it does require an extra 2 food. Which ... I suppose you could have spent on a scientist specialist ... which gets 3 beakers ... oh my head will soon explode. Sorry to clutter your thread with a non-sign up, was just curious. Maybe I'm just being dense at the moment.
     
  5. Jet

    Jet No, no, please. Please.

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    sooooo, I think your point about food is good, but the slider is not really an issue (except for multiplier buildings.) Either way, you're spending a population point on a production tile. If in the rush-buy case you spend a turn at 0% science and run a surplus of wealth, you can always spend that on research later. The remaining issues are:
    1. Food. You're right: for a good comparison that's still simple, you should compare tiles with the same food yield (grass hill mine to grass hill cottage). For a thorough analysis, you should consider the entire distribution of tiles that are likely to actually be available, and happy caps, and the use of whipping and drafting.
    2. Multiplier buildings. I think Mutineer made reasonable assumptions. For a thorough analysis, you should consider the interaction between buildings and the slider, and the cost/etc of getting the buildings in the first place.
     
  6. Mutineer

    Mutineer Chieftain

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    Folk, you are mixing up tie yield with improvement yield.

    I probably guilty in same error, but I just wanted to illustrate the point. If we look on pure improvement yield, my point become even more clear.

    Town itself, with out underlining terrain/specials produce in best conditions 7 commerce and 1 shield.
    Mine itself, with out underlining terrain/specials produce in best condition 3 shield. 2 + 1 from railroad.

    So, improvement by improvement base my point even more strong.
    After banking, with 100% bonus to gold and 25% bonus to production from forge or + additional 25% bonus form org religion:
    Town can produce by rush buy 1 + 7*2/3=5.666666 shields.
    Mine can produce 3 * 1.25 = 3.75 or 3 * 1.5 = 4.5 shields.
    Town actually comfortable beat mine. With our railroad difference is even bigger.
    2*1.25 = 2.5 or 2*1.5 = 3
    Tax % does not matter, it is working tie to tie matters.
    Amount of beakers for city with 5 town + 5 mines at 100% research will be =
    To city with 10 town and 50% research (trade and other sources of commerce not count)
     
  7. pigswill

    pigswill fly (one day)

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    Lurking

    In addition to tile comparision its also worth considering that market/grocer increase caps leading to bigger cities leading to more tiles worked. Forge/factory reduces health cap leading to smaller cities and fewer tiles being worked.
     
  8. Swiss Pauli

    Swiss Pauli Chieftain

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    Better in which sense? Caste doesn't seem useful in this variant, so would that mean Serfdom?
     
  9. Mutineer

    Mutineer Chieftain

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    any, Col or feodalism. better is sence later civic. :)
     
  10. ungy

    ungy Chieftain

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    I would be interested in playing as this sounds interesting.

    I am away 2 of the next 3 weeks but my availability is good after that so only if that is OK.

    A few comments: I think the difficult period will be in the period between slavery and US.

    Early on we're OK as the restrictions don't apply. There is a game going at Realms Beyond now on emp with no whipping/drafting. Cold world which nerfs the AI tho. Still I recommend it.

    http://realmsbeyond.net/forums/showthread.php?t=2214

    As for the comparisons, I think with all the buildings town is much better--I don't think you counted food. Fair comparison is 1f,2h,7c vs1f,4h (with RR).
    However, I would rarely build all those buildings--usually if I cottage spam I am running a pretty high science %.

    If we play emperor, I would recommend using a weak leader for these settings. No fin and probably no agg or phil. Maybe Saladin as I think he is weakest--spiritual we nerf w/o nat and late slav and protective is always useless. Game can possibly be won before the restrictions are meaningrful.

    At immortal we need all the help we can get so pick a better leader--maybe Eliz or Ragnar.

    As for VC, I think space is a good goal--that would really test the rush buy/mines comparison. 2 cities can produce the big parts and the little ones don't need mines.
     
  11. Swiss Pauli

    Swiss Pauli Chieftain

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    Hmmmm...maybe Caste and a target of cultural victory would somehow work, so sign me up if you plan to start soon as I won't have BTS for another week at least!
     
  12. Mutineer

    Mutineer Chieftain

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    OK, current roster so far:
    Mutineer
    ungy
    Swiss Pauli

    I think we need 1-2 more befor we can start.

    In a mean time, dificulty/leader?
     
  13. Swiss Pauli

    Swiss Pauli Chieftain

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    Emperor is fine for me, but I've not really tried Immortal. As to leader, that depends: Warlords or Vanilla?
     
  14. KMadCandy

    KMadCandy giggling permanoob

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    lurking, not signing up but i will be watching!

    vanilla vs. warlords: are you allowed to build wealth? i know there are differences between the versions, and i think that warlords gives you more gold/shield than vanilla. double-check that if you care, i'm only half awake.

    i agree with ungy that part of the power of spiritual is military, switching to nationhood/slavery etc. however, i also think that if circumstances end up that cultural/diplomatic is the victory condition, and if you try to get there mostly peacefully not militarily, spiritual can be a very powerful trait for that. peaceful diplo/cultural might be very difficult to achieve in SGs as opposed to SP game, i certainly haven't seen even 5.

    but i have an additional however. i 100% agree with muti (he didn't not say it here ;) and i may be wording it wrong) that most successful games start with establishing your economy and security (can include offense not just defense), and then looking at the big picture to see what victory condition looks best at that point. so, throw salt all over this post if you like. but do have fun with the game!
     
  15. Mutineer

    Mutineer Chieftain

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    Warlords, I do not see reason to go back to vanilla.
     
  16. Swiss Pauli

    Swiss Pauli Chieftain

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    OK, for Warlords I like any of Alex, Liz, Ghandi, Brennus, Wang, Augustus, Mansa.
     
  17. Jet

    Jet No, no, please. Please.

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    I'd like to sign up, please.

    I'd prefer that the possibility of Domination be open. In a Space Race, buying important buildings in core cities is a common tactic, and the game is won more with land and research than with late-game production. I'd prefer Emperor and a leader with good traits. If that's too easy, maybe the tile restrictions could begin earlier, for example at Code of Laws or at the beginning of the game.
     
  18. Mutineer

    Mutineer Chieftain

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    OK, current roster so far:
    Mutineer
    ungy
    Swiss Pauli
    Jet

    I think we need 1 more befor we can start.
     
  19. GreyFox

    GreyFox Make it so ...

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    I will like to join if you would have me ... but be warned: I'm probably not yet a player comfortable with emperor+ (never tried, almost playing 100% SG these days). But they say you can play half a level above your comfort level in SGs, so given this roster, I can probably enjoy the ride :D.

    --
     
  20. Mutineer

    Mutineer Chieftain

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    OK, current roster so far:
    Mutineer
    ungy
    Swiss Pauli
    Jet
    GrayFox

    Ok, we have our roster so I will roll start when I come back from work.
    Currently I am lean in direction of choosing some week leader on emperor. May be some protective leader? I believe it is really useless trait for human player.

    We may start on emperor as it will permit us wide specter of possible strategies. In addition, no offence intended, I do not know any of you folk, I mean I did not play with you, do not know your stile. I think some more coherence request for higher level of play.

    As I see it there are 2 main possible strategies: Pyramids and non Pyramids based.

    Non pyramid would be a typical strategy. Go to liberalism and then in direction of democracy, picking up banking and everything else in trade.

    Pyramid strategy may let as to try something not usually effective – beeligning to Banking instead of usual Education.

    With Pyramid we already have ability to use rush buy, we can not exploit Nationalism. So, banking in order to build Banks, which for us are as effective as factories, only mach cheaper.

    In general I do not want to get fixed on predefined strategy, because environment may dictate other. Still, I want to keep these 2 main options in mind.

    IN a way Pyramids would be more interesting, I think. Simply because usually people do associate them with SE.
     

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