Discussion in 'Civ6 - General Discussions' started by Disgustipated, Jun 4, 2017.
Top 10 for me:
Trust me, it would be impossible to make list without personal preferences and biases. Creating objective list is really impossible, because every Civ offers different bonuses and requires different game style. And I either like this game style or don't like it. And when I don't like the game style, I don't go for it, because I find it, I dunno, boring. Then I look at the Civs from the usual game style I'm playing and I figure out the abilities are worthless to me, and that means they end on low place on my list. That's why I find Rome weak, because Rome encourages early expansion and wide gameplay, while I'm tall player and I rarely use early expansion. It's all about personal preferences and point of view. I know how do you feel when you're protecting Rome. I was doing the same with France and Poland in abilites elimination thread, and I still think that Poland is horribly underestimated and that 19th place is completely undeserved.
And please, it's only a list from 15,5 years old boy who's still struggling to learn English, don't take it very seriously. It's just my subjective opinion.
I'm starting to come around on Poland. I've since played them a few more times and the Hussar is impressively good and has a really long window. Their UB is also great. I wouldn't quite put them in the top 10 but they are close. I think they just fell out early because of the Religious abilities and they are a DLC.
I also think that. I was shocked when I saw someone downvoted Poland only because it was DLC.
By the way, I'm kinda interested how would your list look. Or at least the top 10.
I already posted it earlier in this thread - and don't worry Rome made the cut
Oh, I just noticed it. Nice list. It would be interesting if you decided to make full list and added a short reason to every civ.
And don't worry, maybe Rome won't stay the 3rd worst in my list - maybe the three new civs from Africa and SE Asia will be all horribly weak so they will be placed under Rome in my list
A Civ 6 power ranking thread? Oh boy, my FGC background has fully prepared me for this moment. As an aside, I think the balancing for Civ 6 is pretty nice, and no Civ feels just straight up terrible (yes, even Norway) - just bad in comparison to other really good Civs.
At the bottom of the barrel, we have Norway, and it’s a damn shame that they’re found here, because they didn’t have to be this weak. Getting the ability to enter ocean tiles before anyone else means that Norway is easily one of the best exploration civs in the game, allowing you to find those unpopulated continents to colonize before anyone else. Their navy having the ability to regenerate in neutral territory is potentially really strong, melee ships being able to coastal raid is handy, a strong city-killing ship in the Viking Longship could be useful, and better amphibious assaults lets Norway transform their naval invasion into a land one at the drop of a hat. There’s just one problem: navies in Civilization 6 simply aren’t very useful. The ability for cities to have access to the water via a harbor without having to build on the coast means that an investment into a navy is less likely to pay off than an army, defensively or offensively. As a result, all of Norway’s bonuses that make them good at raiding & capturing coastal cities simply aren’t as useful in practice. This leaves them with the Berserker, which admittedly can be useful but is a bit of a double-edged sword (also requiring a bit of extra investment to build); though to be fair, they do synergize quite well with the coastal invasion playstyle that Norway embodies. It’s also worth noting that the Stave Church, while by no means is a game-breaking UB, I have found to be more useful in practice than you might think. But these two mediocre bonuses are not enough to save Norway from being the worst Civ in the game. While not the Iroquois or multiplayer Venice from Civ 5 in terms of horribleness, and still quite fun in all honesty, they’re not good.
Most of Spain’s bonuses are pretty inconsequential. Treasure Fleets, while sounding nice, doesn’t give you too much of a bonus in yields for intercontinental trade routes in practice. The earlier fleets & armadas may seem powerful, remember that creating them would require a very hefty production investment; an investment you might not be in a place to make when the Renaissance rolls around. Also worth keeping in mind is that navies are less useful in general, making the payoff of that navy less worthwhile. Then you have the mission, which really is an inconsequential tile improvement. Yes, in the late game +3 faith and +3 science from one tile is quite good, but the prerequisites for those bonuses are pretty constraining (and that last +2 science comes late enough to the point of irrelevancy). So what Spain has going for them come from El Escorial and conquistadors. El Escorial’s inquisitor bonus is barely worth mentioning, and while the +4 combat bonus is nice (but not amazing), it’s predicated on both having a religion (which isn’t necessarily a guarantee, given that Spain has no bonuses towards actually getting a religion) and fighting someone of a different religion (which if you’re spreading your religion around successfully, won’t be in play fighting your closest neighbors). The conquistador is legitimately pretty good, as a +10 combat boost is really impactful. The catch is that you need the faith required to be able to churn out missionaries, which the mission could actually help with. Overall, Spain’s pretty weak, but hey, at least they’re not Norway.
Let’s get this out of the way: Catherine has probably the weakest leader ability in the game. Maybe the extra diplomatic visibility is useful on a multiplayer level, but the AI tends to be pretty predictable in terms of their interactions with one another, making this aspect of the bonus pretty much null. The extra spy early on is handy, sure, but it isn’t enough to make this LA stand above any of the other ones. Additionally, the château with its +3 culture, +1 appeal & +1 gold (if all its prerequisites are met) serves as one of the weakest improvements in the game (not to mention also being completely outclassed by the pairidaeza). So what saves France from being the worst civ in Civ 6? Essentially, it is entirely predicated on Grand Tour. +20% production towards Medieval through Industrial era wonders is really nice, and helps garner some of those really impactful wonders such as Forbidden City and Ruhr Valley. The tourism boost is also pretty handy for cultural victories. The Garde Imperiale is a strong defensive unit, but is held back by the fact that it can’t be upgraded into from an earlier unit, meaning you have to cough up the 340 production cost (more than cavalry!) to build it. In short, a bonus towards wonder spamming is all that saves France from being at the very bottom of the barrel, but they still have no bonuses that help them in the early game, which is arguably the most impactful portion of any Civilization game.
More rankings to come later, this is all I had the time to type out at the moment.
Sir, incredible work. Long and very good arguments. I can't wait for the next parts!
Thank you! I was worried that they'd be too long-winded to worth anything.
The rain has dampened my plans for the day (pun fully intended), so I went ahead and wrote the next tier in my list. The next probably won't come till tomorrow.
Now we’re getting into the Civs that aren’t great – or maybe even all that good – but have some really cool aspects that make them great some of the time. That sentence describes Brazil probably better than any other civ in the game. Amazon is one of the more unique Civ abilities in the game, improving rainforest tiles’ adjacency bonuses for the non-production oriented districts. What the game doesn’t tell you that this ability does is that it also causes rainforests to add tile appeal for Brazil rather than detract from it. This is part of the reason why Brazil’s neighborhoods have additional housing, but it also causes national parks in rainforests to be more effective, contributing nicely towards a culture victory. The adjacency bonuses are nice in the early stages of the game – particularly for theater squares, since those adjacency bonuses are hard to come by – but adjacency bonuses won’t carry you throughout the game, since they get overshadowed by building yields later on. Amazon’s main weakness, however, stems from the fact that it interacts with rainforests. Rainforests are tiles you really can’t do much with unless you have resources on them, and have pretty weak yields (outside of building Chichen Itza, which is dependent on actually getting the wonder). So often times you’re going to end up chopping down those tiles, reducing the application of this ability. However, if you have a start where you can build around the rainforest or a lot of resources, this ability can be pretty useful. Pedro’s ability might seem really strong, but remember that it’s a refund for patronizing great people: not a discount. That means that you still have to make the – oftentimes really large – investment towards buying them. The refund is nice for making that investment more worthwhile for the great people you do want to beeline. Speaking of beelining great people, the Carnival’s district project helps to speed you towards those great people that you really, really want (think Adam Smith, Wernher von Braun, etc.) and reducing the patronization cost. The extra amenity from the district is nice as well. The Minas Gereas is probably the best naval unique unit in the game; though it comes late, the range that a battleship possesses makes it useful even consider Civ 6’s limitations on navies, and having a more powerful battleship is always a welcome addition. Brazil has a number of versatile bonuses that in the right situation are really strong; the problem is that they’re not always going to be strong, which gets them this spot on the list.
India is one of the best religious civilizations in the game, as Satyagraha provides a bonus +25 faith on standard map size, letting you spam religious units to your heart’s desire. The problem with Satyagraha is that it doesn’t let you be the first to getting a religion, only helping you once you actually get it (or meet someone that’s beaten you to the punch). That means that you might not be able to get the religious beliefs you want if a civilization that does have direct benefits to getting that religion beats you to the punch. However, you can still get some of those benefits thanks to Dharma, which provides the follower belief for each religion in your cities. Follower beliefs tend to be some of the more useful benefits in my experience, so it’s fortunate that Dharma provides access to a lot of them. The catch here, however, is that if you’re spreading your religion around successfully (which you should be trying to do, if you’re playing as Gandhi) it can be hard to guarantee the presence of other religions within your empire while still ensuring your own’s dominance. If you can manage to balance them successfully, however, it can be really good. The Varu is a potent unit killer thanks to its high strength (the highest in the classical era) and ability to reduce other units’ strength. The latter of those two bonuses make the Varu also useful when sieging cities, since it applies to city strength as well. The con for the Varu comes with its insane production cost, 50% more than the horseman it replaces. Since India has a strong religious focus, most of your early production is going to go towards holy sites and their associated buildings, meaning you’re realistically going to build a small amount of them at a time. They also do not upgrade until you unlock tanks in the modern era, so you’re going to be sitting on them for quite a while. The stepwell is a really cool unique improvement, as it provides bonus faith for India’s religion spam but also increased growth potential in the form of food and housing. India’s cities as a result and grow larger early on compared to other civs. Overall, India’s optimized great for a religion, but not much else, and they don’t really help for getting that religion, resulting in their spot in the low tier.
Japan is a civ that who’s bonuses inspire a reaction of “meh.” Meiji Restoration is probably their best trait, with the adjacency bonuses for being next to districts useful for getting higher yields out as soon as you build a district. There are a few drawbacks here, however. For one, much like with Brazil, adjacency bonuses eventually become outclassed by building yields, so this bonus won’t be as powerful as the game progresses. Two, this will likely require you to use up a lot of tiles near the city center, which are already highly contested tiles in their own right (aqueducts, Forbidden City, Eiffel Tower, Apadana). Three, resource placement may not permit you to build these cities so tightly together, limiting the application of this ability. Divine Wind is ok; the strength bonus is potent, but highly situational on maps that aren’t island plates, and the bonus discount on encampments, holy sites, and theater squares is nice, but these are often not highly prioritized districts, outside of maybe encampments early on and theater squares if you’re going for a cultural victory. Samurai are admittedly quite powerful, but they do not upgrade from anything, requiring you to build them on your own. The production cost isn’t too bad though, and they will allow you to roll over your neighbors in the early medieval era. The electronics factory gives a single extra hammer and some extra culture once you research electricity, to which I shrug my shoulders and say “cool.” Japan are pretty mediocre overall, but they have their strengths which place them above Brazil & India.
I find America to be one of the more underrated civilizations in the game, since I see some people placing them in the bottom tier below even France & Spain. Yes, Founding Fathers may be the most boring UA in the game, and you could make an argument for it being worse than Catherine’s Flying Squadron. Yes, the P-51 Mustang may be basically irrelevant. The rest of their bonuses, however, are actually pretty solid. +5 combat strength on your own continent from Roosevelt Corollary is pretty substantial at the start of the game, and will help with dealing with barbarians and potentially early wars if you get a good spawn. The national park bonuses is neat as well, I guess. The Rough Rider is pretty nice as well, since culture from kills and bonus strength is always welcome. You do have to build them on your own, however, and they’re quite costly. America’s biggest strength by far, however, comes with the Film Studio. 100% tourism bonus in that city is frankly insane if you’re going for a culture victory. Simply because of the Film Studio, America is probably the best civilization in the game for actually closing out a culture victory. Though they may be kind of bland and a lot of their abilities come into play later than you’d like (which is why they’re not higher on this list), the decent bonus to securing your start and the insane tourism bonus are enough to propel Teddy to the top of the low tiers.
The level you are playing also matters a lot. Egypt is great for Emperor and below, but on Deity (epic speed) you can't build one of those chariot archers before another Civ wipes out your capital. And if you build them later, they really aren't that special in terms of strength. And, 15% for Wonders doesn't mean much either.
On the flip side, the Aztecs are effective at any level, maybe even more on higher levels. Come to think of it, I bet they are just ridiculously OP in a marathon game. I mean, 5 worker charges finishes a district regardless of game speed, meaning you will be that much further ahead of your opponents with slower speed.
@Jewelrunna, doesn't the Aquaduct count as district for adjacency bonuses? That may be slightly helpful in Japan's case. Plopping down an industrial zone next to the aquaduct and the city center does start to give the industrial zone some hammers early on. Could even put a holy site or theatre district on the other side and boom, +3/+2. Not particularly useful, but it is a start.
I dunno, I'm trying to find ways to get Japan to work.
I believe it does count, but you'd rather have another district there to combo off even more adjacency bonuses. My point is that the ability has limitations based on choosing between capitalizing on its bonuses or go for other things you'd want such as an aqueduct.
Aqueducts absolutely count toward adjacency. Great with Rome's Baths.
I'm quite surprised to see Norway to be the third best Civ in your list. Of course it's your opinion, but I'm interested why do you think it's so powerful?
Does it have to be powerful?
If I was totally honest, the civs I truly enjoy playing are
Quick access to a pillaging naval unit. You can just run away with the game after one tech. Just need a target.
I tried them, expecting them to be lackluster. I was amazed.
Yeah, it's a bit like a Gorgo' culture gains, shame the AI does not build more mines.
It's not crazy at all. You have a unified outcome measure: "in a competitive environment where players have similar skill, which one wins the game the most on average?". It doesn't matter what the victory condition you attain is, or what the style is, what matters is the outcome (win or not).
I know you're somewhat critical of it, but the implied conclusion is that you'd overwhelmingly weight anything that provides a decisive military advantage, regardless of how it's provided. Earlier in the game the better, since a small advantage confers stacking break points in terms of reaching more important things sooner city spots, techs, etc).
Rome should be up there, though it has some stiff competition especially from DLC.
[my emphasis in the quote]
Thank you @Victoria! Throughout these "power" rankings, the word "enjoy" has only been mentioned one other time. As far as I'm concerned, the true power of a civ is its power to make me enjoy the game more. (Or, if I'm playing co-op multiplayer, its power to help me help my ally enjoy the game more.) That's why, to me, your list is the most meaningful yet.
(And, when you have a moment, I'd be interested in whether you vary the map type with England or you tend to stick to the same selections, as England would be up there on my list too.)
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