Power ranking the civilizations

It's not crazy at all. You have a unified outcome measure: "in a competitive environment where players have similar skill, which one wins the game the most on average?". It doesn't matter what the victory condition you attain is, or what the style is, what matters is the outcome (win or not).

I know you're somewhat critical of it, but the implied conclusion is that you'd overwhelmingly weight anything that provides a decisive military advantage, regardless of how it's provided. Earlier in the game the better, since a small advantage confers stacking break points in terms of reaching more important things sooner city spots, techs, etc).

Rome should be up there, though it has some stiff competition especially from DLC.

Well... which one wins the quickest then, no? Unless you get a rare turn 9 zerg, I can't imagine losing to the ai in a normal game.

Ooooor.... do we go by score?

If winning can be no indicator, do you use speed? Or score?

And if we shift from win % to score or speed, as we must, do we go with 'who is capable of -est?'. Or do we go with 'who would average the best over 10,000 games on random maps?'

Still seems pretty subjective.

edit: as well, what about the skill of the player? Do you consider every skill level? The average skill level? Maybe the average result? I know there are people who find deity challenging... I expect outcomes by civ would have different results based on skill (lumping in experience). One person might excel with Japan, but suck with Sumeria. That is not Sumeria's fault.

Or is it? Now do we have to consider ease of use? Are we discussing the 'potentially' most powerful civ, or 'so far demonstrated to be' the most powerful civ, based on [insert qualifier here] playerbase?

Hmmmm...
 
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And if we shift from win % to score or speed, as we must, do we go with 'who is capable of -est?'. Or do we go with 'who would average the best over 10,000 games on random maps?'

Well, of course the best would be the experiment, having ~10000 players playing ~1000 games on random maps with random civs & random difficulty level (or hardest) & looking statistically how often a certain civ wins :mischief:

That being said, this kind of experiment will probably not be financed by public funds. So, we have to make do with a less rigorous approach. How about "which civ has most cities by turn 100"? Of course that is kinda cheesy, but it might be a rough estimate.
 
Well... which one wins the quickest then, no? Unless you get a rare turn 9 zerg, I can't imagine losing to the ai in a normal game.

I'd go by competitive MP winrate after large sample size. Non trivial data to acquire so any tier list is an estimate at best of course.
 
I'd go by competitive MP winrate after large sample size. Non trivial data to acquire so any tier list is an estimate at best of course.

Ooooh... mp!

Yea, changes everything. I would have a different list from SP to MP. But I suspect Persia would top both for me.

edit: but still many conditions and qualifiers.
 
I'd go by competitive MP winrate after large sample size. Non trivial data to acquire so any tier list is an estimate at best of course.

This is probably the only legitimate way to really determine how good a civilization or leader is; other than that, it's just opinions.
Speaking of opinions, here are my thoughts on what I consider to be the middle of the pack.

Mid Tier

17. Egypt

Egypt have a set of pretty good bonuses, but don’t have one bonus that particularly stands out as amazing. Iteru isn’t as strong of a wonder-spamming bonus as France’s or China’s, but it lasts for the entire game and applies to districts. It does only apply to river tiles, so the ability’s application is a bit limited, but remember that many of the most coveted wonders in the game - like Big Ben or the Hermitage if you’re going for a culture victory - need to be built on rivers. Not to mention that you’re going to be building commercial hubs and aqueducts on rivers anyways, so this bonus will help getting those out. The removal of floodplain restrictions is nice, but unless the adjacency bonuses are too juicy, you’ll probably want to farm those tiles regardless (or capitalize on Lady of the Reeds & Marshes). Mediterranean’s Bride is a pretty nice ability, and guarantees Egypt a good source of income. The fact that it gives extra food to your trading partner is a bit of a drawback, but since you’re getting extra gold in a situation that no other civ can, it outweighs the cost. The sphinx isn’t a game changer for Egypt, but it’s a nice augmenter for the wonders you’re already going to be gunning for. The extra faith is nice for religious victories, and they contribute surprisingly well towards culture victories. It’s worth mentioning that if you’re Egypt, you can pretty reliably get your hands on Petra if you really want it, and sphinxes become amazing when paired with that particular wonder. The Maryannu Chariot Archer is the most underwhelming of Egypt’s bonuses. You might look at the ridiculous combat strength (33 ranged strength, the highest in the ancient era) and correctly assume that it eats units for breakfast. However, your expectations should be tampered by the astronomical production cost and the penalty when attacking cities. Therefore, it’s best used as a defensive unit, but the high cost means you could still be building one when an angry Montezuma starts banging at your palace doors. Overall, Egypt’s a pretty decent civ, but one that’s pretty dependent on an optimal start.


16. England

In my rankings for when the game first came out, I had England much lower on the tier list. However, seeing how their bonuses interact in game and getting buffed in a few major ways, they now sit comfortably at about the middle of the pack. British Museum is a pretty solid boost towards a cultural victory, since the extra tourism from artifacts is impactful, but not to the same extent as the film studio. It really only effects the culture victory (outside of extra culture to move through the civic tree), so it’s a welcome bonus but not an exceedingly great one. The Sea Dog is an acceptable unique unit, which in the right circumstances can get you a huge navy basically for free. The two problems with the Sea Dog are that the AI doesn’t build a whole lot of navies in the first place and that the mechanic of capturing ships is percent based: it’s not guaranteed to fire every time. Combined with the fact that getting a large navy isn’t as impactful as you’d like and that the Sea Dog has no other extra strengths from its privateer counterpart, and you end up with a UU that can be really good, but often times is just ok. With those two bonuses out of the way, let’s talk about the ones that make England strong. Pax Britannica is an ability that once you start conquering/settling cities on other continents, you really start to amass a huge standing army. This ability also gives you access to the Redcoat, which I would describe as the strongest unit of the Industrial Era. If you’re going for a domination victory, you’re probably fighting off your continent by this point, which brings the unit’s 10 bonus strength when fighting off your home continent into play. This is stronger than an infantry from the modern era, never mind anything in the Industrial Era. You’d be correct in looking at the unit’s production cost and thinking that they’d be unviable to build, but remember the free melee units from Pax Britannica. This means that all you have to do is research Military Science, start conquering, and you begin to amass an army of Redcoats for free. They do come into play late in the game, and you need to start the initial process of conquest to use this strategy, but once you get the ball rolling, you’ll sweep like a crimson tide across your enemies. The free movement when disembarking is nice as well when moving across the ocean. And finally we arrive at the best asset England has to offer: the Royal Navy Dockyard. The extra gold on other continents, extra great admiral points, and extra movement for naval units are all solid, but what makes it good is the extra trade route it offers. Ok, so it’s not technically a true extra trade route, but most civs will only get one trade route when building a commercial hub and a harbor in a city as opposed to two. England does not has this limitation, getting both trade routes without missing out on the other. This means England will get more trade routes than any other civilization in the game, and all the potential growth/production or gold – depending on how you use them – associated with that. All in all, England are a really solid civilization with a lot of really cool applications in game. I just think the 15 civs that follow are better.


15. Rome

This might be one of the more controversial placings on the list, since some people in the community think Rome might be top five, while others argue that they belong in the bottom five. At release I thought Rome was in the top five, but with a bit more experience seeing them in action, my opinion of them has been tempered. I still think they’re good, but other civs are better in my opinion. Let’s start with what’s perceived to be their weakest bonus, All Roads Lead to Rome. I agree that it’s their weakest asset, but the ability is getting severely underrated. Free roads immediately after settling a city (if in range) is quite handy, allowing you to mobilize armies and move around builders much faster than you’d otherwise be able to. The extra gold from trading posts (which applies to both domestic and international trade routes, if I’m not mistaken) isn’t game breaking, but extra gold is never to be frowned upon. Moving onto Trajan’s Column, free monuments whenever founding a city is quite powerful, and is the main attraction for playing as Rome in my opinion. This bonus gives you free culture (at a time where moving through the tech tree to get to Political Philosophy is very impactful), an increased rate of border expansion, and it frees up your production queue at the start of the game. Not to mention the bonus is multiplied whenever you found a new city. The ability falls off as the game progresses, but is very strong at the beginning of the game. The Legion is a really powerful unit, as they have the same strength as a Varu (technically the Varu is stronger because of the strength reduction, but I digress) and do not require iron. Yes, they’re more costly in terms of production, but it can be upgraded into from warriors, partially alieving that burden. The builder charge is kind of handy for clearing land, but is more a niche asset than anything else. Once Rome unlocks Legions, they become one of the biggest military powerhouses in the classical era, and can expand via conquest quite rapidly. What also helps their expansion is the Bath, an aqueduct district replacement. The district gives an extra source of amenities that would otherwise be unavailable, which is nice, but for me the real draw of the Bath comes from the mechanic that all unique districts have: that it has half the production cost of normal. What this means for an aqueduct replacement is that potentially, you could settle a city as Rome in an otherwise unviable location for any other civ, quickly build a Bath, and now you have a full-functioning city. This may be some theorycrafting that doesn’t really amount to much, but it’s a possibility. So in Rome, we have a civ that has some very strong expansion opportunities, and is overall pretty good. But much like England, I find the following civs to simply be better.

14. Persia

And so we arrive at our first DLC civilization; spoiler alert: I think they’re all pretty damn good. But back to Persia, their unique ability is Satrapies, which is a really solid one. A free trade route once you get to Political Philosophy, a tech you should be beelining regardless, is great. In the early game, you’re going to be using those trade routes internally to promote growth & production, so the extra culture & gold from those domestic trade routes is really helpful. The gold won’t compare to what you’ll be able to get from external trade routes later on, but getting gold where you otherwise wouldn’t be is nothing to scoff at. The advanced roads is ok, but there’s not too much of a difference in roads from one era up to the next. Fall of Babylon lets you go full blitzkrieg mode, powering through enemy territory and arriving at the city gates before you know it. If you’re going to be met with heavy resistance, this ability has less of an impact than otherwise, but is still nice for positioning. The occupied cities isn’t too impactful, and the warmongering/war weariness changes are nice, but not game changing. The Immortals, to be honest, I’m not the biggest fan of. They synergize nicely with Fall of Babylon to get some fast, sturdy archers, but you’re left without much of a strong force to capture cities, relying on outdated spearmen & heavy chariots or horsemen to break through the walls. I just find the unit to be somewhat redundant, since you’re probably going to have archers regardless, and I’d prefer a standard melee unit, but perhaps I’m making a misjudgment here. And then we have the pairidaeza, or as I like to call them, “good châteaus.” Good châteaus give all the bonuses that the château does, but more reliably and better all around. More culture, more gold, more appeal, and is all around really good while making France’s countryside look like an Alabama trailer park (Firaxis pls buff France). I could be underrating Persia’s military strength via the Immortals, but even despite that I think they’re a quite solid civ, and deserving of 14th place.

13. Greece (Pericles)

Rounding out the mid-tiers, we have Greece under the leadership of Pericles. Let’s start off with Plato’s Republic, because sweet Jesus, this ability is amazing. Having an extra wild card policy slot is ridiculously strong at the start of the game, allowing you to take both God King and Urban Planning to have faith, gold, and production gains at the same time. This continues to be relevant as the game progresses, letting the player adapt to almost any situation. It’s powerful, flexible, and I love it. Surrounded by Glory isn’t too impactful at the start of the game, but your wildcard slot will let you take an extra diplomatic policy early on to establish your city state hegemony. 5% per city state suzerainty isn’t great early on (say you have 25 culture per turn and are suzerain of two city states – that’s only a 2.5 cpt increase), but once you get more city-states and more culture, this can let you plow through the later civics, arriving at the advanced governments quickly. Speaking of additional culture, we have the Acropolis. The Acropolis gives a major adjacency bonus (+2 culture per turn) when built next to the city center; this is pretty impactful because the adjacency bonuses for the theater district are fairly hard to come by, giving Greece an extra culture edge over other civs. Unfortunately, it can only built on hills, which is an unfortunate constriction on the district. Essentially as Greece, you have to settle next to hills to reap the benefits of the district. This can often times mean you have to settle in awkward locations to capitalize on an Acropolis, or not be able to use its adjacency bonuses at all. In the Hoplite, the Greeks have the opportunity to build a wall of units to use offensively or defensively; they’re not the most flexible units formation-wise, and once the wall starts to crumble they get significantly weaker, but they’re a solid unique unit. Overall, I think Pericles’ Greece is a solid, mid-tier level civ. His bonus is pretty good, the Hoplite is ok, the Acropolis is good when it’s viable, but Plato’s Republic is one of the best abilities in the game. The only major problem for Pericles is the (in my opinion) greater appeal of his Spartan counterpart.
 
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The +1 gold to trade routes for passing through trading posts in your own cities for Rome can be an AMAZING bonus. Tons of free gold for the trade routes I need to build anyway? Yes, please! Once you have a ton of cities this bonus can really shine, and effectively add an extra cog or two worth of gold to each route.

The "builder charge" for Legions is also very good, and makes the "Raid" military policy worth slotting any time you are at war, as the legions can fix what they've pillaged the next turn. For a lost cog or two you can get 50+ science, culture, faith, or gold just for pillaging a few improvements. Units upgraded from Legions retain this ability.

Baths are also awesome as the extra population they can support lets them act like a surrogate campus which also yields a small amount of culture plus whatever you get get from the tiles worked by the extra pop. They also have the advantage of being MUCH less expensive than a campus. In most games by the time I hit Engineering any decent city can build a Bath in 5 turns or fewer. They also provide adjacency bonuses to other districts (bath, city center, and com. hub is my go-to layout for all inland cities on rivers) and Baths do not count against the district cap. Wanting to get to Engineering also makes bee-lining Machinery a no-brainer, and a combined force of promoted legions and archers > crossbows will do damage for a LOOOOOOOONG time.

You sort of gave free monuments it's due as a bonus, but still under sold it, imo. If you want early war you can complete Craftsmanship no later than turn 19 if you settle in place, and possibly earlier if you can get a quick builder out. Slingers can then sometimes be skipped early in favor of warriors which can be upgraded to legions quickly, as any decently productive city with Agoge can later hard build archers easily. With a favorable set up a mass of Legions around turn 40 isn't out of the question. Conversely, if your start is isolated and you won't be going to war early then you can get to Early Empire fast and pull what is probably my favorite gambit in the game: running Agoge and Colonization simultaneously. The capital and any other suitable cities can pump settlers while all the others build units. By the time you unlock Oligarchy you can have a bunch of cities and a huge army.
 
The +1 gold to trade routes for passing through trading posts in your own cities for Rome can be an AMAZING bonus. Tons of free gold for the trade routes I need to build anyway? Yes, please! Once you have a ton of cities this bonus can really shine, and effectively add an extra cog or two worth of gold to each route.

The "builder charge" for Legions is also very good, and makes the "Raid" military policy worth slotting any time you are at war, as the legions can fix what they've pillaged the next turn. For a lost cog or two you can get 50+ science, culture, faith, or gold just for pillaging a few improvements. Units upgraded from Legions retain this ability.

Baths are also awesome as the extra population they can support lets them act like a surrogate campus which also yields a small amount of culture plus whatever you get get from the tiles worked by the extra pop. They also have the advantage of being MUCH less expensive than a campus. In most games by the time I hit Engineering any decent city can build a Bath in 5 turns or fewer. They also provide adjacency bonuses to other districts (bath, city center, and com. hub is my go-to layout for all inland cities on rivers) and Baths do not count against the district cap. Wanting to get to Engineering also makes bee-lining Machinery a no-brainer, and a combined force of promoted legions and archers > crossbows will do damage for a LOOOOOOOONG time.

You sort of gave free monuments it's due as a bonus, but still under sold it, imo. If you want early war you can complete Craftsmanship no later than turn 19 if you settle in place, and possibly earlier if you can get a quick builder out. Slingers can then sometimes be skipped early in favor of warriors which can be upgraded to legions quickly, as any decently productive city with Agoge can later hard build archers easily. With a favorable set up a mass of Legions around turn 40 isn't out of the question. Conversely, if your start is isolated and you won't be going to war early then you can get to Early Empire fast and pull what is probably my favorite gambit in the game: running Agoge and Colonization simultaneously. The capital and any other suitable cities can pump settlers while all the others build units. By the time you unlock Oligarchy you can have a bunch of cities and a huge army.

Those are all fair points, and to be honest, I totally forgot about the little extra housing that the Bath provides. I agree that Rome are quite a good Civ; I simply think that 14 civs in the game are better. I will say though, that Rome, Persia, and another civ that shall remain nameless for now aren't set in stone yet, and I could easily see my opinion of them changing for the better.
 
@Jewelrunna

I think you underestimate Persia - specifically the speed boost. Its insanely effective. And you can keep it going with chain dows.

And you seem like a MP'r. I would think a mp'r would be more impressed by the speed. Where there is pvp, speed trumps all.

Even better, civ has the fog of war. This enhances the effectiveness of speed even further.

"If they can't see you, they won't know its coming."
- famous civ general

As a Russia fan, I like to refer to the speed boost as my "Persian Winter."

And don't forget the patch - with the speed boost, catapults can move and shoot on the same turn.
 
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@Jewelrunna

Solid rankings and explanations so far - I enjoyed reading it. That being said, I'll have to again defend Rome and argue they should be much higher than that - they have the most early game advantages which are far more significant. They are far stronger than Greece IMO. Persia seems about right to me. I might have them a little higher, but I agree with you about Immortals and I think Satrapies falls squarely into middle tier. Their leader bonus is among the best though.
 
@Jewelrunna

Solid rankings and explanations so far - I enjoyed reading it. That being said, I'll have to again defend Rome and argue they should be much higher than that - they have the most early game advantages which are far more significant. They are far stronger than Greece IMO. Persia seems about right to me. I might have them a little higher, but I agree with you about Immortals and I think Satrapies falls squarely into middle tier. Their leader bonus is among the best though.

In re Immortals, just don't upgrade your warriors. Or not all of them.
 
I'm really glad that this list is encouraging more debate about where the Civs belong, some really illuminating opinions are being discussed here. With that said, here are what I call the "Four Good Civs."

Good Tier

12. Poland

Now we’re getting to what I consider the real powerhouses of the game, and we start with Poland – our second DLC civ. I mentioned earlier that there was a third civ that I could see moving up in the tier list: Poland is that civilization. Golden Liberty is a really useful ability, as you’ll want to build a few encampments to help early production and churn out experienced units, so getting extra territory for doing that is awesome. The culture bomb is also better than Australia’s, since you have more control over which territory you’re going to be annexing, also creating more situations where you will straight up take tiles from your opponent. While the transformation of a military policy into a wildcard policy slot is not as good as Greece getting an entirely free wildcard policy, it does offer Poland an extra degree of freedom in molding their government. Lithuanian Union gives an easy way to spread your religion by stealing territory from your opponent. The bonuses to relics and extra faith from holy site adjacency bonuses are quite strong, and give an edge to spreading your religion around – the gold and culture from the relics are nothing to scoff at either. Poland’s Winged Hussar is ludicrously strong as well: it has much higher strength than a standard knight, it can mess up your opponent’s defensive line, and if it can’t, it deals even more damage. It likely is one of the top five strongest unique units in the game, and makes Poland one of the most dangerous foes in the medieval era. The Sukiennice is quite a good unique building, as it makes domestic trade routes much better by covering their one weakness: a lack of extra income. Late game, you won’t need much food for growth, which is part of the reason you switch to international trade routes; the extra production you get from the Sukiennice covers the one aspect of a domestic trade route you’d miss at this point in the game. Poland are really good in this game, and as I mentioned, I could see them quite easily breaking top ten at some point. From my perspective, however, I think this is a suitable position for them.

11. Greece (Gorgo)

So since we’ve already covered Greece earlier in this list, I’m just going to talk about the one difference between Gorgo and Pericles: her leader ability, Thermopylae. Gorgo gains culture from kills, and realistically, you’re going to be killing a lot of things in the early game. Regardless of whether or not you go for early wars, you should be hunting barbarians, netting a good income of extra culture early on. As I’ve mentioned with Persia and Rome, you want to beeline Political Philosophy as quickly as possible, so that you gain access to the first wave of governments and get more policy slots. With the extra culture from kills, Gorgo can get there faster than pretty much any other civ the game, barring perhaps Rome. Combining this with the fact that Hoplites synergize with her ability more than Pericles’, and that this culture for kills mechanic will be relevant throughout the entire game, I find her to be the better of the two Greek leaders.

10. China

If all of China’s bonuses were as good as their UA and LA, they might be a top five civ in the game. However, they have two great bonuses and two meh ones, placing them here. Dynastic Cycles is, as I said, a great bonus. The extra 10% time shaved off from techs/civics via Eurekas/Inspirations makes those boots 20% more effective, meaning that if you’re proactive about those bonuses, China can speed through the eras. Plus, it’s a bonus that’s going to be relevant throughout the entire game, and only becomes more effective the more culture and science you develop. The First Emperor is insanely strong; out of all the wonder-spamming bonuses, it’s in my opinion the best of the bunch. Sure, it might only apply to ancient and classical wonders, but the ability pretty much means that any wonder Qin wants from this period (barring perhaps Stonehenge, since the AI likes to rush that one), Qin will get. Also keep in mind that among these wonders are some of the best in the game: Colosseum, the Great Pyramids, Petra, and others that are situationally amazing (like Stonehenge, if you have a lot of production you’re willing to stake on getting it). If Qin Shi Huang is in the game, forget about pursuing early wonders: none of them are safe. With those two great bonuses touched upon, let’s get to China’s more mediocre ones. The Crouching Tiger is a unique ranged unit that doesn’t replace anything (meaning you’ll have to build it yourself), and is a one range unit that has really high ranged strength. Yeah, they might be 25% stronger than a normal crossbowman, but they’re limited by their single-tile range. They’re squishy, so that firepower can be easily punished. And then we have the Great Wall; essentially a fort that can only be built on your current borders that provide extra gold and culture for each adjacent piece of the wall. Yay? It’s a unique tile improvement that requires you to eat up a lot of your territory just to make it viable, and even then it still isn’t that strong. I said the château was the weakest tile improvement in the game, but I take it back: the Great Wall is definitely the worst. If only it were more viable, China might be able to join the pantheon of the truly elite civs in the game, but unfortunately, it’ll have to settle for just being really good.

9. Kongo

“But Jewelrunna,” - you might be saying to yourself – “how can a Civ that penalizes itself in its LA possibly be in the top ten civs in the game?” Let’s start with that claim about Religious Convert first, with something I posted in a different thread.
This may be a controversial opinion, but I don't really think Mvemba's ability is that much of a malus. Yes, it may prevent you from winning a type of victory, but being able to reap the benefits of founding a religion without actually wasting resources on it is pretty useful no matter what victory you're going for. It also provides kind of a cool mechanic where you build districts in cities that have the religion you want to spread around, and getting apostles to spread it around.
That may be an edgy opinion, but in my view, it’s simply not that bad despite being denied a victory type. But let’s assume for the sake of argument that Religious Convert were Civ 5-Iroquois bad; their other abilities are still completely insane. Nkisi is one of the best abilities in the game, giving pretty much every resource you really want from some fairly obtainable great works, artifacts, and relics. From a single archeological museum, you can get +6 food & production, and 12 gold per turn. Finding a relic in a goodie hut turns from a nice bonus to potentially game-breaking for Kongo. And if that weren’t enough, double the points for all cultural great people and great merchants is ludicrously strong. These aspects put together make Kongo the arguable best cultural civ in the entire game. I don’t have enough good to say about Nkisi, as I love this ability. Don’t mistake them for simple peace-loving culture spammers, because the Ngao Mbeba isn’t to be scoffed at either. Sure, it might be slightly weaker than a normal swordsman, but they don’t need iron, and are very resilient to ranged attacks, making them quite good at soaking up fire from archers and cities. Depending on your start, however, the Ngao Mbeba can really excel. Not taking movement or sight penalties from forested tiles can let you blitz through a wooded neighbor, paving the way for your siege units to move up to the cities. While this isn’t a guaranteed situation, it is somewhat likely since Kongo has a bias for forest and rainforest, which might extend to your neighbors. Overall, a pretty fun unit to play with. At this point, Kongo are already a pretty wonky civ, with unique, but extremely potent bonuses. The icing on the cake for this though, is the Mbanza, which is a completely game-breaking unique district. You see, every other civ – barring India to an extent – has their city growth capped off at the mid-game by housing, limiting what you can specialize your cities in via districts. To work around this, you’ll have to settle a fair bit of cities, or conquer extra ones to let your empire continue to grow. That is, unless, you’re playing as the Kongo. The Mbanza is available in the Medieval Era, two whole eras before anyone else. Yeah, it might give less housing in optimal situations, but it’s consistent no matter what with 5 housing, and gives extra food and gold to capitalize on that newly available housing. This means that the Kongo can grow really tall cities, before anyone else has a chance to, letting them work more tiles and build more districts, effectively getting more out of cities than anyone else. All of these things put together make a really powerful civ, despite the “malus” that their LA might provide.
 
Kongo reminds me Venice from Civ V. Kongo can't found religion, so it becomes incredibly good in Cultural Victory. Venice can't found cities, so it gets doubled trade routes and thus becomes the best Diplomatic Civ. Both are also annoying AI - Enrico is backstabber, Mvemba will definitely hate you for not spreading religion right two turns after you found it. One of the rare differences is that Kongo is incredibly better multiplayer civ than Venice :p
 
Map type and size are also going to affect which civs are "better".

Germany is good no matter what. (Hansa everywhere. duh.)
England: if lots of continents, then it gets just silly for Dom wins. Once you start taking cities on another continent, your army just goes nuts.

On the Largest Earth Map, I'm thinking Germany, England, Scythia, and of course Rome (for the roads)
(that's the map showing in red when using YnAMP)

Modded civs of course are a different story. (they don't count for this)


Oh, on the LEM, you are gonna need the Venetian Arsenal. Way too much coastline to protect. (also the Great Lighthouse)
 
Thanks for the replies, I'm looking forward to Jewruna's top 8.

Makes me want to give Poland another try. I only played them once. I generally shy way from civs that seem religious focused. I prefer either production, war, or culture type bonuses. And I still need to actually finish a game with Kongo. I only played them to around mid game, but I did like the early neighborhoods.

Sorry I didn't notice the elimination threads. I have yet to step foot in one. I thought they were some type of forum game? So I wasn't aware of a previous (recent one including dlc) civ comparison thread.

I've been working 12 hour days and not much time to post here or play. But I'm in a Macedon game right now. And they do really stand out in higher levels. I'm playing a level higher than I normally play, and getting all those tech/civic boosts is quite powerful. No war weariness is pretty handy as well. I don't think I like them as much as Persia, but they are one of my favorite warmongering civs.
 
17. Egypt

Egypt have a set of pretty good bonuses, but don’t have one bonus that particularly stands out as amazing. Iteru isn’t as strong of a wonder-spamming bonus as France’s or China’s, but it lasts for the entire game and applies to districts. It does only apply to river tiles, so the ability’s application is a bit limited, but remember that many of the most coveted wonders in the game - like Big Ben or the Hermitage if you’re going for a culture victory - need to be built on rivers. Not to mention that you’re going to be building commercial hubs and aqueducts on rivers anyways, so this bonus will help getting those out. The removal of floodplain restrictions is nice, but unless the adjacency bonuses are too juicy, you’ll probably want to farm those tiles regardless (or capitalize on Lady of the Reeds & Marshes). Mediterranean’s Bride is a pretty nice ability, and guarantees Egypt a good source of income. The fact that it gives extra food to your trading partner is a bit of a drawback, but since you’re getting extra gold in a situation that no other civ can, it outweighs the cost. The sphinx isn’t a game changer for Egypt, but it’s a nice augmenter for the wonders you’re already going to be gunning for. The extra faith is nice for religious victories, and they contribute surprisingly well towards culture victories. It’s worth mentioning that if you’re Egypt, you can pretty reliably get your hands on Petra if you really want it, and sphinxes become amazing when paired with that particular wonder. The Maryannu Chariot Archer is the most underwhelming of Egypt’s bonuses. You might look at the ridiculous combat strength (33 ranged strength, the highest in the ancient era) and correctly assume that it eats units for breakfast. However, your expectations should be tampered by the astronomical production cost and the penalty when attacking cities. Therefore, it’s best used as a defensive unit, but the high cost means you could still be building one when an angry Montezuma starts banging at your palace doors. Overall, Egypt’s a pretty decent civ, but one that’s pretty dependent on an optimal start.

I think you underestimate the Maryannu and have misjudged their purpose. Their strength isn't their primary selling point tactically speaking, mobility is, but a lot of their value comes from how economic they are for a builder in the long run.

Tactically, like tanks in WW2, they are best kept and used in packs, a lone Maryannu is vulnerable and underwhelming, a group of only 5 of them can completely run amok destroying everything in their path and letting nothing escape. Able to get anywhere, they can put arrows in anything you need to no matter how the enemy shuffles themselves around to try and protect from you. You just cycle in as many volleys as you need anywhere you want. If in doing so you move into a vulnerable position you can take a good chunk out of the pressure with everyone else so the wounded Maryannu can live and escape next turn to heal up and cycle to the rear.

I didn't even realize they had a penalty to cities, they can melt them like butter until enemy starts pushing out medieval units which is more than enough time to get full use out of your Maryannu, but the incediaries promotion greatly improves their longevity and you'll be getting to it quickly enough even with no encampment after taking only 2 or 3 cities.
They may not do as much damage per shot as a catapult, but it's more damage than an archer and they can get into position around a city to whittle it down in no time at all. Every other unit takes time to move from one city to the next, Maryannu just do it quicker. Moving and shooting even into rough terrain, from one smoldering wreck to the next it makes carving out your borders a piece of cake, and you can easily continue to reinforce them since it takes them no time at all to get Maryannu from your city to the enemy. If you built scouts earlier in the game they can follow along and put cities under siege while you bombard and wait for slow poke melee units to catch up.

On the economic side of things you have their upfront cost, and the fact they don't upgrade to knights like the unit they replace. For players done with war though, this is very good as it offers an excellent post-war transition into a peaceful victory. Maryannu are ranged units and are reduced in cost by Agoge along with melee, melee and Maryannu is all you need, nothing else, Maryannu are very versatile, the only thing they can't do is capture a city. This along with their upgrade to crossbowmen means long term you actually invest very little into your military compared with any other civ who at some point will be building some units outside of a discount. The cost for Egypt’s is just very front-loaded and so seems like a lot, but is entirely made up for in savings by medieval by which point as far as production investment is concerned you might as well have never committed anything to an invasion army. You've just been building away like normal and built a few crossbowmen to defend while a bunch of cities fell into your lap.

Once you're done conquering neighbours, and before warmonger penalties are a big deal, settle your borders, make peace, upgrade Maryannu to crossbowmen at your leisure for peanuts (standard 60g or 30g with policy) and stick them in all your cities for defence, replace Agoge with Retainers (+1 amenity per garrison) as you transition cleanly into building up peacefully, no wasted resources toward a victory you're not pursuing (conquest) and few enemies made (in fact more will respect your military), no left over units you won't use, and a bonus to city yields to boot. You are now in an incredibly strong position. A hyper-aggressive opening and an elegent 180° into peaceful play with zero resource spillage.
 
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I think Persia's ability was more intended to be "+2 movement in the territory of the person you declared war on" (and it may be nerfed to that eventually). As is, it's pretty ridiculous - you can have bonus movement in your war against Civ A just by declaring war on Civ's B and C (you don't have to send any military against them, and can just peace out later).

I go back and forth on Kongo. Yes the bonus from a themed arch museum is insane, but it's a lot of investment to get to that point (cultural districts, the weakest district, with two buildings and an archaeologist basically per city).
 
I think you underestimate the Maryannu and have misjudged their purpose. Their strength isn't their primary selling point tactically speaking, mobility is, but a lot of their value comes from how economic they are for a builder in the long run.

Tactically, like tanks in WW2, they are best kept and used in packs, a lone Maryannu is vulnerable and underwhelming, a group of only 5 of them can completely run amok destroying everything in their path and letting nothing escape. Able to get anywhere, they can put arrows in anything you need to no matter how the enemy shuffles themselves around to try and protect from you. You just cycle in as many volleys as you need anywhere you want. If in doing so you move into a vulnerable position you can take a good chunk out of the pressure with everyone else so the wounded Maryannu can live and escape next turn to heal up and cycle to the rear.

I didn't even realize they had a penalty to cities, they can melt them like butter until enemy starts pushing out medieval units which is more than enough time to get full use out of your Maryannu, but the incediaries promotion greatly improves their longevity and you'll be getting to it quickly enough even with no encampment after taking only 2 or 3 cities.
They may not do as much damage per shot as a catapult, but it's more damage than an archer and they can get into position around a city to whittle it down in no time at all. Every other unit takes time to move from one city to the next, Maryannu just do it quicker. Moving and shooting even into rough terrain, from one smoldering wreck to the next it makes carving out your borders a piece of cake, and you can easily continue to reinforce them since it takes them no time at all to get Maryannu from your city to the enemy. If you built scouts earlier in the game they can follow along and put cities under siege while you bombard and wait for slow poke melee units to catch up.

On the economic side of things you have their upfront cost, and the fact they don't upgrade to knights like the unit they replace. For players done with war though, this is very good as it offers an excellent post-war transition into a peaceful victory. Maryannu are ranged units and are reduced in cost by Agoge along with melee, melee and Maryannu is all you need, nothing else, Maryannu are very versatile, the only thing they can't do is capture a city. This along with their upgrade to crossbowmen means long term you actually invest very little into your military compared with any other civ who at some point will be building some units outside of a discount. The cost for Egypt’s is just very front-loaded and so seems like a lot, but is entirely made up for in savings by medieval by which point as far as production investment is concerned you might as well have never committed anything to an invasion army. You've just been building away like normal and built a few crossbowmen to defend while a bunch of cities fell into your lap.

Once you're done conquering neighbours, and before warmonger penalties are a big deal, settle your borders, make peace, upgrade Maryannu to crossbowmen at your leisure for peanuts (standard 60g or 30g with policy) and stick them in all your cities for defence, replace Agoge with Retainers (+1 amenity per garrison) as you transition cleanly into building up peacefully, no wasted resources toward a victory you're not pursuing (conquest) and few enemies made (in fact more will respect your military), no left over units you won't use, and a bonus to city yields to boot. You are now in an incredibly strong position. A hyper-aggressive opening and an elegent 180° into peaceful play with zero resource spillage.

That Egyptian uu can be quite a pain when I'm trying to besiege an egyptian city. Comes in from nowhere and redlines my archers.
 
The removal of floodplain restrictions is nice, but unless the adjacency bonuses are too juicy, you’ll probably want to farm those tiles regardless (or capitalize on Lady of the Reeds & Marshes).
It seems many agree with you on this point, but I don't. First off, you can disregard the point about reeds/marshes pantheons, because a floodplain with sphinx still produces an extra cog. It only factors in as a "loss" if you look at using floodplains for district/wonder placement, but that's where the following point comes in: I think the argument you made is very valid to make for civ5, where excess food and tall population where the ultimate method of doing... everything. But this isn't the case with civ6. Yes, food and growth still lead to more population and more citizens working tiles, but unlike civ5, food in civ6 is... everywhere. Grassland mines are now self-feeding (they provide two food units, which is the cost of the extra citizen assignment to work the tile.) Plains mines now produce 1 food where in civ5 they produced none, so your high production/low food tiles still come pretty close to meeting their own food requirements. Then there's a whole bunch of tiles, like grasscows, spices, grasshorses, marshes, floodplains, oases, etc. that produce excess food even before they are improved and even more food after. Finally, even if you specifically engineer your internal trade routes (which most agree are superior to external ones until the very end of the game) to NOT make more food for the city, they will still contribute some extra food. The point is that excess food in this game is in no short supply; you'll usually end up with positive growth even if you aren't trying to do so, and if you emphasize growth in your cities you'll just end up hitting the amenity/housing ceilings earlier and being less productive and/or profitable while doing so.

With all that being said, in CIv5 tiles that produced lots of food and nothing else, growth for the sake of growth only, were effective. In this game, not so much. So with the tiles that produce nothing except food and cannot have an improvement that provides anything except more food (namely flat grassland and floodplains, both produce only food and can only be improved with farms), it is a major advantage to civs that can have these tiles be improved to produce something other than food. cogs, gold, culture, faith, it really doesn't matter, any of these yields can be converted into stuff that helps you win the game. It is those two types of tiles, flat grass and floodplains, which are the best placement for unique improvements - even if kurgans and ziggurats could be placed on hills, you probably wouldn't because the mine is more beneficial. But the civs with UI's that allow those tiles to produce something other than food, that's a substantial benefit. And the sphinx is one of the only ones that can be built on floodplains.
 
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