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[GS] Power Ranking the Civs (Gathering Storm)

Discussion in 'Civ6 - General Discussions' started by The googles do nothing, Feb 20, 2019.

  1. Victoria

    Victoria Regina Supporter

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    hmm I think it did, we just did not know how to use it. I used to say it did not seem to until I worked out how. Certainly worked after the original spring patch.
    +2 on all RNDY would be great. They already get +2GA points which is stronger than people realise.

    Kupe having shipbuilding is just ridiculous. You win as soon as you start an island map, probably the fastest dom game. I mean Kupe DOm's easily with Toa but try building quads early... Dido does not stand a chance.
     
  2. Sostratus

    Sostratus Deity

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    The inca are quite... intense. If this is SP, then he's minimum strong tier. You don't need mountains at all- just having hills near rivers is enough to get terrace farms rocking. The real power comes from the production they can grant, moreso than extra mountain food. In SP the UU is also amazing in the hands of the player because of how easily exploitable AI cities are for free XP. Once you have some Ambush waraks, it's over. Not to mention the absolute cheese that Qhapac nans are for trade and warfare.
    One could probably make an argument that Pericles is strong. Too much culture generation.Shaka is also quite a beast. I guess I would delineate a tier between average and strong.
    Precisely what makes a civ god tier- no counterplay. This is underappreciated in SP I think. The harder the difficulty the more it gets triggered because AI will DoW you. I don't know why they made it last so long especially for liberating. AI gobbling CS up makes it pretty usable on offense too. (Does it work with free cities?)
    But then they also have that great appeal->yield ability and the outback station, which is so strong it's almost cheating. I think at steam power, just building one next to a pasture is +2/+2. Plus the pasture gets a +1 prod boost too.
    Extra production from woods and jungle on turn 1 is already super strong. The marae's culture boosts are just unwarranted even if that was the only civ ability. It even applies to floodplains with farms on them. I mean, what. If someone proposed that boost for egypt just on floodplains it would be shot down as OP.
    If they didn't have the water ability or the toa, just Mana+Marae is insanely strong.

    I also think germany has grown in power since RF. The coal plant just made them soul crushingly good. But you do have some counterplay there so they aren't maori or sumer level.
     
  3. IvoryPavane

    IvoryPavane Prince

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    I think many navy’s would struggle against Kupe but I don’t think Dido is one of them. Her Biremes are very strong against Quads and they come just as early, and if she has her Cothons up then there are few navies that could ever take her.

    I suppose dumb AI Dido wouldn’t stand a chance, but no AI would, but in multiplayer Kupe is not winning that war at sea alone.

    My main issue with Kupe is that Mana has more abilities in a single ability than most classic Civs have in their whole kit. And a lot of stuff he just didn’t need. (And he didn’t need BOTH free techs. That’s genuinely bonkers)
     
    Last edited: Mar 20, 2019
  4. Tyroq

    Tyroq Warlord

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    They could nerf Kupe by making all his rock bands play the Shiny song from Moana. :cry:
     
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  5. AsparustheSaiyan

    AsparustheSaiyan Chieftain

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    No worries! I'm open to my mind being changed if you feel I've misplaced any civ.
     
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  6. IvoryPavane

    IvoryPavane Prince

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    I think it’s pretty solid actually! It’s tough because it’s a pretty subjective topic overall so everyone is going to have their own thoughts.

    For me, I think that Freleanor and Catherine are closer than they are in the list. Catherine’s ability was the best part of France and it makes them low key dangerous in the early game if she wants to come for you, and spy’s are generally useful. Especially a free one.

    I’d possibly swap Zulu and Ottomans, and I think Netherlands would bump up into average, they are very solid imo.

    But my experience is primarily multiplayer so I have a bit less single player experience. (Usually between Emporer and Immortal)
     
  7. Victoria

    Victoria Regina Supporter

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    In MP all types of things are happening.
    Kupe gets the Foreign trade tribute and more initial culture so gets to 100% ship builds faster
    Kupe gets additional production early
    Cottons take ages! I know, I am a Victoria player through and through. Know all the ins and outs of harbours. And by the time Cothons are up,so are Toas. Is that a land unit or a naval unit, having played them, they are just scary bad at sea as well as land.
    But sure, in MP with masses of spammed Biremes it may be complex.

    Behave! That’s a Bowie tribute song.
     
  8. AsparustheSaiyan

    AsparustheSaiyan Chieftain

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    Thanks!

    Yeah it's pretty subjective but in a way that's what I like about it! Everyone likes to talk about these sorts of things since we are all individuals and have our own opinions.

    I put Freleanor ahead of her simply because I feel Frances abilities synergize slightly better with Freleanor and can start to snowball. Its heavily dependant on getting great works though which is the problem. Seriously though... I've never had cities fall to loyalty so much as I did with her. It was quite hilarious actually.

    Interesting, why would you swap Zulu and ottomans?

    Netherlands... This was another one I was torn with. I may have to review what I think of them. The reason I put them where they are is that whilst +2 adjacency for districts next to rivers is nice, rivers have a good chance to flood... Maybe I'm being a bit harsh on them though. If it was a tier list for the prettiest looking civ Netherlands would be god tier alone just thanks to their polders lol.
     
  9. Jkchart

    Jkchart King

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    I'm with this. Eleanor is actually a better leader for England than Victoria is right now. Sure WOTW isn't the most synergistic (or even powerful ability), but for some reason I had a crazy good game as her, and I'm assuming it was my RNDs as well because I had a smashing gold game next to my culture game, and I used those extra WOTW bonuses as much as possible just to be able to use them and now I actually like England. I could never finish pre-GS with England as Victoria. Still need to give GS Victoria a shot, but if I play England again, I'm certainly playing Eleanor. Setting her up right makes her a monster.
     
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  10. Jkchart

    Jkchart King

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    Me too! England/Eleanor was surprisingly more fun than I expected. She was my first GS game, and it was such a good game that it really put the GS launch off on the right note for me.
     
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  11. IvoryPavane

    IvoryPavane Prince

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    Indeed, I’m not saying Dido is better than Kupe at sea or anything, just that of all the naval powers, she is the most likely to fare better against him.

    By the time he settles his first city, she will have Sailing and while he has better early production, Biremes are just over half the hammers than Quadriemes so I doubt he would get far in an early game rush she could see coming.

    And by the time her Cothons are up, she becomes immensely difficult to take out by sea unless you vastly outscience her, which I don’t think he would. Toas are crazy but unless they are oneshotting her ships, she’s still going to come out on top of a defensive naval war

    Kupe is a vastly (and boringly id controversially say) overtuned Civ for sure, but I’m pretty certain Dido would hold her own at sea if he came for her. And Norway would too I suspect.The others... eh...
     
  12. IvoryPavane

    IvoryPavane Prince

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    I worried about that too with Netherlands but I’ve found I don’t get too many floodplain rivers so they flood less, in my experience anyways.

    I think her bonus is nice because it gives adjacencies to districts that don’t often see them (Theatre and especially industrial). And Polders post-buff are still niche but far more useable.

    It isn’t a crazy Civ, but I find it to be similar to Phonecia, Greece, Cree etc. It doesn’t have overwhelmingly strong abilities, but they are very solid and generally applicable in each game, so definitely a solid B(+ if you’re nasty).
     
  13. Victoria

    Victoria Regina Supporter

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    I agree however I would say they are not as good as some other civs out there.
    I think Hungary is too hit and miss to be top tier, sure on king and even emperor they rock but on deity they lose the VS too easily if they get one to start with.
     
  14. Archon_Wing

    Archon_Wing Vote for me or die

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    Here's my preliminary list.



    Notes: I have only played GS civs since GS came out (besides Cree). Well, I mean I'm not superhuman; I can't play every civ in a month. I also haven't finished a game with Hungary yet because I keep spawning on landmasses with 0 city states (Naturally, I don't really think that highly of them.)

    French or English Eleanor? Well, the correct answer is actually Kupe, but I think English Elanor is better than French Eleanor who is sorta rubbish if you ask me.

    Eleanor's main gimmick is she flips cities fast. If you're not playing to flip cities, then you should pick a real leader like Catherine or a real civ (aka not England). Neither the Sea Dog or the Guarde do anything for this, and the Chateau is worthless. WoTW also doesn't do a damned thing so the ultimate showdown comes to the Royal Navy Dockyard vs Grand Tour. While in theory Grand Tour has more synergy with a cultural victory, it actually doesn't because wonders don't really generate any tourism (even with the French bonus). Thus you're limited to the wonders that have slots for Great Works so you may flip cities. However, you don't get to take advantage of this until medieval. The Dockyard on the other hand lets you grow your cities faster and lets you scoop up those badly semi-forward settles that the AI has which allows you to snowball faster. You also have some decent gold (this is literally all England is good for now) If you wait until medieval to do this, AI cities will be much harder to flip and you also don't have as high of a city count.

    As a result, I also think that Eleanor is better than Victoria too. But the morale of the story is to not pick England.

    Norway is useless. The only reason why anyone considered Norway functional is because they could abuse chop overflow. Without that and Kupe and Dido literally taking a dump on Norway's naval dominance added to the fact that Japan got even better just means that Norway is obsolete.

    Kupe is flat out OP. He gets to pick and choose where he settles, and the Toa is ridiclous, especially considering how it takes no resources. I actually think he's not good for culture victories at all since he can't block great writers. Despite this this is more than enough and the funny part is he can still use Magnus if he feels like it. Except stone. He hates stone.

    RIP Rome and Arabia. (not exactly) These two civs were known for a consistent warring ability thanks to their UUs, but the iron requirement has hosed them. They're still strong but not the monsters they once were.

    The Rise of Russia. With the Rock Bands coming out, Russia is arguably one of the best civs for cultural victory. Pretty sure they could be S but not sure yet. All faith civs have benefited. I mean, the ones that actually generate faith reliably (sorry Phillip)

    The German Revival. Rise and Fall was not kind to Germany as the dominance of Magnus overflow made the IZ irrelevant. Now that there's actually a reason for production (in addition to the games being longer sans pillage abuse) and heavy synergy like the coal plant (not some dingy +2 bonus), Germany is once again rising to take its place amongst the top. Scotland of which I never really thought was good either should also see better days.

    Canada is basically just America done wrong. Basically, America's really good atm thanks to yet another buff, and pretty much does everything Canada should have done. In the end, Canada's terrible start bonus and inability to attack CS does them in.

    Egypt is now respectable. With more options other than knights and the archer line becoming more valuable in resource shortages, as well as the strength of floodplains, I don't think Egypt will be that impressive, but they're certainly far better than they once were.

    Beware the skirmishers. The Cree UU is very deadly atm with its ability to pillage and upgrade into skirmishers it's quite lethal. Naturally the Incas are also ridiclous here as well as basically being a science civ (why did we make this mistake again?).

    Pericles > Gorgo Although the Spartan has long been considered superior, the gap was bridged in R&F. With Pingala providing free culture, Gorgo's strength just doesn't matter as much, and this means Pericles will overtake her faster than before.

    Balance isn't too bad. I think tiers A and B are pretty close together in strength. Certainly the top ones are a problem and the bottom ones as well, but given the sheer amount of choices, it's been worse. You have about 30 or so viable and balanced choices.

    Edit: Is it just me or the expressions look more unhappy as we go down?
     
    Last edited: Mar 20, 2019
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  15. Disgustipated

    Disgustipated Deity

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    I like what they tried with the governor, it just doesn't work. As you mention, you can only have one of him. He can't be everywhere at once. Because once you start warring, his production bonus is almost assuredly useless as you are unlikely to be producing many units from front line cities. He really only has one useful ability. Serasker. There is no other reason to take him. But the ability is strong enough to get up to this promotion.

    They kind of remind me of the Zulu, slow, but almost unstoppable.

    I've been watching PotatoMcWhiskey's Ottomans playthrough. They are pretty solid. And very little loyalty problems that he had in his Hungary game (he never finished that one though). Ottomans simply are better than Hungary for domination, especially in regards to consistency.

    As for Hungary, they can be kind of weak. Even on King difficulty the AI can and does save up envoys to take your Suzerains away from you. They do it EVERY single game. That's why it amazes me people say they are OP. Pay attention to what the AI does to city states when you are at war with them. Your only chance is Amani last promotion, it just takes a long time to get there. I enjoy playing Hungary peacefully, only striking out on occasion to liberate city states or weaker AI civs.
     
  16. Sostratus

    Sostratus Deity

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    Did we mention it has no upkeep either?!
    120 base cost is absurdly cheap for what it does.
    Swords cost 90 and legions cost 110. Toa should cost 160-180. I mean its so easy to mass them without needing iron the cost is almost irrelevant. It's functionally a strength 45 unit (medieval.) (49 if you take oligarchy.)
     
  17. AsparustheSaiyan

    AsparustheSaiyan Chieftain

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    Has Norway EVER been functional? Lol.

    Maybe I was undervaluing Moari... I may have to play another couple of games with them and re-evaluate them for my list. I put him where I did since he can't chop and like you said, can't block Great writers so considering I really like culture victories maybe I valued him less.

    Rome and Arabia... I almost feel bad for these guys... Almost. Their rushes were incredibly strong especially in Rome's case. Thankfully for Rome they are still great at expanding quickly and in a game that favours playing wide that's still great for Rome. Arabia got the short end of the stick with the resource requirement. I did still keep them in my strong tier just because I thought having universities earlier and a guaranteed prophet was a great thing to have. Maybe this is a scenario where I am overvaluing them.

    Russia can essentially breed Rock bands with the amount of faith generation they get. With earth goddess or dance of the aurora and the rightrpolicy cards you can pretty much buy a rock band every turn. It is so good!

    Germany is set to become a powerhouse once again. They were so close to being god tier in my list. If the Hansa was a little sooner and the U boat wasn't mediocre and late they would instantly be god tier for me. Having an extra district is fantastic after all in a game designed around building cities and infrastructure.

    I think I've already explained my opinion of Canada before... I was not impressed. They definetely need some improvements.

    Interesting point about Egypt and the floodplains. Whilst yes, it's not amazing, they are in a better position then they have been.

    Maybe I undervalued the Cree? I will have to investigate lol.

    I think the only reason I put gorgo over Pericles was because of how effective early combat still is in the early game. Rushing your nearest neighbour and dealing with the inevitable barbarian problem (stupid barbarians...) Can ney a decent amount of culture whilst gaining territory. Would you mind explaining why you think Pericles is overtaking gorgo please?
     
  18. knighterrant81

    knighterrant81 Warlord

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    ...Until you hit Flight, and all your unimproved tiles start granting MASSIVE amounts of Tourism in Marae cities. He's very good for Culture victories - just all your tourism comes rather late rather than building it up with GWs. All that Faith helps with late game Culture things, like National Parks (which he is likely to be able to build several of thanks again to unimproved tile "spam") and Rock Bands.

    It is all about the Horsemen. The fact that both of their UUs are on the Light Calvary line is pretty nice. Raven King isn't their strongest bonus, except that it boosts the Black Army. Rush Horsemen, crush a neighbor, upgrade to Black Army, Levy, smash another neighbor, form an Alliance, upgrade to Huszar, smash another neighbor. Pearl of the Danube is for Commercial Hubs so you can afford to Levy. Use Raven King to buy Envoys and stock up the Diplomatic Favor for Diplomatic Victory. Although you already have a massive amount of cities, so you could win any victory you want.
     
    Last edited: Mar 21, 2019
  19. Arilian

    Arilian King

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    I think your point on Canada is wrong, especially if you want to win peacefully of course.
    If you have some space, you can freely expand quickly if you just give something to your neighbor, as they will not denounce you if they done hate you, and if they done denounce you, they cannot attack you.
    This frees you from building a big army to defend yourself, and can ally them a bit later for sure.
    Farming tundra can give you 3-4 more city spots compared to other civs. I would give it a B.

    Both Elanors are super strong for peaceful victories, you can surely and consistently win any game where you are not alone in your continent. You can (and should) buy great works for quite cheap and easily sway cities in any era. If you can win an emperor game, you can win diety with her just this ability, you dont need to use any deity strategy nor know how to capture cities, just need to be able to count to 9 to place your cities.
    Easily and S Civ..

    I don't agree that either Monty or Gorgo is an S. May times the maps are not ideal for warrior/eagle warrior rush, and while sometimes they can steamroll their continent they can met walled cities with crossbows in them at turn 80, what can be a real problem. They are good but not super good.

    For Hungary I had no problem keeping my suzerains (played 3 full game with them so far as I am from Hungary), but you have to use all of your cards/quests to your advantage.

    Indonesia also S/A civ from me. 100% god of the harverst, chop everything, get golden age faith settler and worker purchase, expand like crazy. It is not super consistent as you can have a map with little forestation at your starting position, or have a very early classical age, and you cannot kill enough camps for the golden age.
     
    Last edited: Mar 21, 2019
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  20. OmegaDestroyer

    OmegaDestroyer King

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    Any time I see these lists, I wonder if the devs are ever going to do a Civ pass and make a serious attempt to balance existing civs. I suspect not but I hope.

    Oddly enough, even with Norwary's lackluster showing, I'd rather play it over Korea or Australia. Hell, I'd rather play most of the lower-ranked civs than the higher ones. The biggest problem with the high tier civs is that you pretty much know you will win if you play them, which renders them boring to play.
     
    Last edited: Mar 21, 2019
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