[GS] Power Ranking the Civs (Gathering Storm)

[schondette]

It does seem like there should be some kind of Rock Band defense, but for the life of me all I can figure is some kind of policy card referencing oppression of the youth with a loyalty penalty.

Lol or pop bands to engage in musical combat strengthened by the MTV policy card

 

[Jewelrunna]

Ok guys let's keep this civil. We are all allowed our opinions after all. This is just a game we are talking about. There are arguments to be made for most of the civs in the game. That's why these tier lists are mostly based off personal experiences with each civ after all. If you think that Korea is better than most than great! all power too you. If you don't then that's fine too!

There's no need to devolve into a childish argument and insult each others opinions. We are entitled to them.



Your welcome my friend!

Some are claiming Maori as the Gathering Storm Sumeria. What made you place them in A tier instead of S of you don't mind me asking?

Kind of true in general, but just two words to add: Rock Bands.

I’ve been fighting an uphill battle pre-GS trying to convince people that Russia’s CV is at least on par with their RV, and you are really pigeonholing yourself by playing Russia solely for RV. With the introduction of Rock Bands, there is now a direct and reliable way to convert all that faith output into CV.

That’s a very good point that I neglected to mention. Russia was probably already the best Civ in the game for Culture Victories, and now they’re probably far and away the best (barring maybe Sweden, but I’d still give Russia the edge).

The Maori are an interesting one to talk about, because if I’m solely looking at their bonuses, they’d be easily S-tier, no question. However, what people often neglect to bring up is that when a map is typically generated, the game tries to allocate a decent space for each player to have a decent enough room to expand. The game generates enough land to go around. This, however, is not the case with the Maori. Rather, because they start on an ocean tile, the map generator doesn’t account for them when allocating space; in other words, if there are 8 Civs in the game counting the Maori, the game creates land as though there were 7. What this means for them is that the Maori are more than likely going to be put into a situation where they’ll have to fight for land or even just defend themselves against a close neighbor. This is a high probability for everyone else, granted, but it’s all but unavoidable for Kupe and the lads. This is especially problematic on higher difficulties where the AI cranks our settlers like Marvel cranks out movies; by the time you settle your first city, it’s highly probable the AI has two, three, maybe four cities. The free builder and pop doesn’t do quite enough to offset this headstart the AI gets over you. So while on paper the Maori get a lot of freedom to pick and choose your start, the reality is that you’re probably going to have to settle on the first or second decent city location.

Now with that said, the Maori’s actual bonuses are ludicrously strong, and once they get their footing, they can easily run away with the game. However, based on my experiences both playing as and against the AI, they’re prone to a contentious start, which can stunt them for the first 50~75 turns, which is why they’re not quite S-tier. But they’re close, very close.

And as for Korea, I’m not sure why people are making a big fuss about their production or their science scaling. Like others have said, they literally have a Hills bias. And it’s not like a lot of other Civs have massive production bonuses, it’s mainly just Germany. And they also have a built in ability that scales their science gain. The Seowon isn’t really prone to falling off either, as long as you decently plan out your cities. Unless you get a godly campus, which is fairly rare, Korea will always out science you. And they’ll probably outscale you there too, unless you get a bunch of the aforementioned godly campuses as Scotland. They’re easily a top three Civ in the game, and I don’t even have to think about calling them the best science Civ—that’s a foregone conclusion.

 

[Vizurok]

Situational meaning we haven't had as much luck with Hungary as you. We either don't have city states near us (yes their position does matter), or the AI saves envoys and uses them to turn the city state against us. It's not pleasant facing down 20 units that were formerly your levied troops. Tell me how this is overpowered. Once you get Amanis last promotion this is less of an issue, which means you have to choose Amani first, but you fall behind in science not choosing Pingala. I had one game where I had no civs near me, and no one to attack for a very long time. I just built up peacefully, and I did enjoy pearl of the Danube quite a bit for this aspect.

Hungary is somewhat situational, that's true, but it should be noted that Hungary really needs only one city state in the general proximity of one of its neighbors in order to achieve a snowball victory.

This is absolutely not guaranteed of course, and you have no information about CS placement at Turn 1, but how is this more situational than Phoenicia not having coastal access or Inca not having mountains? In my opinion, the only difference is that you can't reroll immediately. If you DO find that one city state, then you are guaranteed to enjoy your Swordsman rush, as the AI will not have 5 envoys to counter your Mysticism-Amani-first levy combo. Sure, they might be some incidents in the later game, but you have basically won the game after your first rush, so you should be able to cope with the issue. As for Amani, the opportunity cost of choosing her is actually not that heavy - some quite good players even prefer to start with Amani in non-Hungary games as she is able to score 6-9 era points easily for a classical golden age.

 

[Troy Bruckner]

It does seem like there should be some kind of Rock Band defense, but for the life of me all I can figure is some kind of policy card referencing oppression of the youth with a loyalty penalty.

Maybe have it where Rock Bands can attack other Rock Bands like Religious units already do.

 

[Archon_Wing]

how is this more situational than Phoenicia not having coastal access or Inca not having mountains? In my opinion, the only difference is that you can't reroll immediately

Phonecia has a coastal bias and Inca has one towards mountains. There is no city state bias.

Plus, people can't destroy your mountains, for example.

That river ability is good though.

 

[Eagle Pursuit]

Maybe have it where Rock Bands can attack other Rock Bands like Religious units already do.

Ha. Yes. Battle of the Bands! Then you could keep Bands around defensively.

 

[Disgustipated]

I’ve been fighting an uphill battle pre-GS trying to convince people that Russia’s CV is at least on par with their RV, and you are really pigeonholing yourself by playing Russia solely for RV. With the introduction of Rock Bands, there is now a direct and reliable way to convert all that faith output into CV.

I don't think anyone disputes this. I got my 2nd fastest CV with them (Pericles is my fastest). I haven't tried a speedy CV with Kupe yet, so can't compare.

It does seem like there should be some kind of Rock Band defense

I was browsing through steam workshop stuff this morning and saw one where apostles can battle rock bands. It's called To Hell with the Devil or something like that. Haven't tried it.

 

[Pietato]

Being able to see enemy Rock Band promotions would be a good start.

 

[acluewithout]

It does seem like there should be some kind of Rock Band defense, but for the life of me all I can figure is some kind of policy card referencing oppression of the youth with a loyalty penalty.

I’d play that.

 

[Leucarum]

It does seem like there should be some kind of Rock Band defense, but for the life of me all I can figure is some kind of policy card referencing oppression of the youth with a loyalty penalty.

Perhaps making it scale to opinion between civs. For a rock band to be fully effective the locals would have to be fans of your civilization? Historical/actual grievances probably do affect record sales IRL...

 

[acluewithout]

It does seem like there should be some kind of Rock Band defense, but for the life of me all I can figure is some kind of policy card referencing oppression of the youth with a loyalty penalty.

You’re only defence is maybe closed borders ... which is maybe kinda cool in a “down comes the iron curtain” sort of way.

 

[DougalDLL]

If you DO find that one city state, then you are guaranteed to enjoy your Swordsman rush, as the AI will not have 5 envoys to counter your Mysticism-Amani-first levy combo. Sure, they might be some incidents in the later game, but you have basically won the game after your first rush, so you should be able to cope with the issue. As for Amani, the opportunity cost of choosing her is actually not that heavy - some quite good players even prefer to start with Amani in non-Hungary games as she is able to score 6-9 era points easily for a classical golden age.

This was my experience with Hungary as well. It is possible sometimes to start without any city states on your starting continent (with a land connection to walk along [pre-embarking] to aid your troops). However, that seemed to be quite rare and less situational than 'other situational' things that affect many other civs in the game.

The AI does often go after the CSs early. However, even in one game when my AI neighbours were gobbling up the CS around me (Scythia and Ottomans), all I needed was just one to get the ball rolling. That first levy... I even freed one CS 'normally' before getting my first levy and got two free envoys in the process but it didn't have an army to help until much later. Taking Amani as your first governor, so long as there is one CS left that you can use, made this quite consistently achievable. But yes, you need that first levy to happen... Even getting it before Iron Working is still nice, but of course the notable example now is beelining that tech and upgrading a bunch of levied warriors into a ridiculously-early Swordsman army with movement AND combat bonuses that will steamroll anything in its path.


I really like Hungary but now I wish they were designed differently. My wife and I have started playing hotseat games sometimes when the kids are asleep (we're not into online multiplayer yet and we like to play on Marathon speed on continents maps), and Hungary is now 'banned' as a choice. We both like having a chance to get at least some CS suz. in our games.

I wish they just had a different bonus to getting envoys or maybe even a free diplomacy card slot for having an edge towards getting suz. instead, if they wanted to use it that way. 'Buying CS envoys' is too easy and you can just keep doing it as soon as a CS is available for its troops to be levied again. I had lots of unused envoy points earned the normal way 'just in case' someone managed to take a CS away from me. I didn't need to use them normally. I controlled every CS in the game and any that had been conquered I liberated. Controlling every CS in the game is a very strong position even if you never go to war again.

I like that Hungary made me take a closer look at levying troops. I now sometimes use it with other civs as opposed to never touching it.

As for levying troops, I think that's great as a part of their flavour. I just wish it wasn't so strong. I felt like I was cheating at one point playing Hungary and it started to feel like I won as soon as I got the ball rolling.
I also would prefer my 'elite troops' to actually be 'my troops' and not the mercenary cannon fodder I levied. In reality it became the other way around. I think Hungary could retain their flavour if levying was instead easier for them but not pumped up on steroids so much.

• Maybe give them a discount towards levying troops that can stack with the government plaza building that also offers a discount. Maybe make it so that it can be easier to do but without the same "Surprise Moth%$&#^*!" pumped-up troops with free upgrades thing in play...
• Let the levied troops be normal levied troops. Take away the free upgrades and the bonuses they get. This more than anything is what is so strong (later it's also that it's effortless to liberate and control every CS in the game). Let them be useful cannon fodder and let the Black Army UU shine more.
• Take away 'buying envoys' and replace it with some other kind of edge towards getting envoys. Something good, but an edge where's there's a chance for other civs to compete for CS beyond just wiping Hungary off the map.

They are not the only cool and fun civ that seems out of whack in terms of balance but they are one I've played recently.

 

[Jewelrunna]

Once again, I feel like we're putting too much emphasis on Raven King when talking about Hungary—which don't get me wrong, it's a great ability. But Pearl of the Danube is patently absurd. It is so good, that it by itself is what catapults them into S-tier. Getting +50% production to all districts and buildings within said districts for just simply building them across the river is so strong that it's difficult for me to convey just how good it is via text. Everything else Hungary has (which, disclaimer, is also great) is just icing on the cake.

 

[OmegaDestroyer]

With the changes to pillaging yields only providing faith, gold, or healing, buffing Norway to receive culture and science from pillaging will help it immensely.

 

[AsparustheSaiyan]

Has anyone seen the new update that's coming? It looks like it's going to change a few things.

 

[Cherenkov]

Has anyone seen the new update that's coming? It looks like it's going to change a few things.

If all that is listed in the patch is true then Maori is getting nerfed pretty hard and the nerf to Hungary's Raven King will not allow you to instantly upgrade all units. However since city states will start with more units in might not be too bad of a nerf if you have the resources. I think I will play them first after the patch to see.

 

[Krajzen]

Thanks God almighty and his Firaxis apostles for nerfing Maori and Hungary, some people defended them but I considered them OP since release

I am really excited by buffs to India, Norway, Canada, China, France, Egypt and Spain.

Now if India is led by Chandragupta then its every bonus is fine, now its only Achilles heel is garbage Gandhi ability.

 

[Cherenkov]

Maori got hit hard, I think a bit too hard but Hungary might just have got a stealth buff as whacker pointed out in the patch thread. Since city states now start with walls it means more if not all will survive on deity. Sure the levying costs are higher but if you got the resources then you can chain levy one CS after another and as you make your way towards your enemies. Or levy a CS far across the map and pillage a civ into oblivion.

 

[Disgustipated]

Since city states now start with walls

Was this in the video? I don't remember hearing that.

I was one of the Hungary defenders, only because every game I played of them I didn't have the best opportunities to utilize raven king. One game where I did have relatively close city states I had a maze of mountains, and it would have taken 40 turns just to get to a nearby civ. I had tons of room to expand peacefully. My first game I had 20 units taken from me and now my enemy because I didn't have any envoys in reserve. That game the city states were near the ai, but not near me. Granted, I should have maybe chosen Amani first, and pumped 3 more promotions into her, but you do have to keep up with science somehow.

 

[Cherenkov]

It isn't mentioned in the video but Ceydezed said it was stated in the live stream.

According to Carl in GameMechanic stream, city states at higher difficulty will start with more units and pre-built walls - so another mod has been implemented.

Have to wait and see if this actually happens.