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[GS] Power Ranking the Civs (Gathering Storm)

Discussion in 'Civ6 - General Discussions' started by The googles do nothing, Feb 20, 2019.

  1. Kmart_Elvis

    Kmart_Elvis Chieftain

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    That's where the Monastic Isolation religious belief comes in when you want to strictly focus on religious victory with them. But it only eliminates the negative pressure from your loss... The victor still spreads his faith! But that's more for an investment if you're chasing down 20+ relics. Cutting down on all that negative pressure helps.

    The reward for all this tricky, sometimes annoying play is an insane faith economy and being the leader in religious tourism. That being said, they're ultimately gimmicky and if I and to go RV, I'd rather play Russia or Gandhi.

    It really is a bad ability. There's usually no adjacency bonus for river spots, so you're giving up valuable faith adjacency for measly food and housing. You're better off ignoring it and try to get a holy site bordered my mountains. It's almost a negative ability!
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 16, 2019
  2. Ziad

    Ziad Warlord

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    Bonuses arent in isolation. Khmer's Holy Site bonuses extend to any river Holy Site and give you bonuses with a possible adjacency opportunity cost. They also work in tandem with their other bonuses.

    Khmer dont need apostles to exploit their relics, so they dont need as much faith. Struggling for mountain adjacencies arent as critical.

    Not commenting on Khmer's power level but I often see people discuss individual bonuses with little consideration to kit synergy.
     
  3. acluewithout

    acluewithout Warlord

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    Khmer are another “religious” Civ where you’re probably better off not founding a religion.

    The UA and LA ability allow for very tall cities. While that’s not optimal with the current meta, it’s still a pretty good advantage. Khmer was one of the best city flippers before Eleanor came along, just because their cities are so tall. You can also combine these abilities with a few different pantheons.

    To me, the Matyr thing is more of a cute bonus. Killing Missionaries works much better when you don’t have your own religion and so don’t care about the impact on religious pressure. The extra relic slot is great though and you aren’t limited to filling these with Matyrs - you can just buy the relics you want.

    No idea where Khmer sit in terms of power ranking. Probably not high. But they are a viable and fun Civ, even if they play against the current meta.
     
  4. Ziad

    Ziad Warlord

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    I feel Khmer are tailored towards a Culture Victory more so than Religion.
     
    Jewelrunna and acluewithout like this.
  5. Jewelrunna

    Jewelrunna Chieftain

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    More thoughts:

    Harald: Harald and Norway are a weird one to talk about, since they got no real direct buffs, but a universal nerf to everyone else leaves them in a much better spot. Since other Civs cannot get science/culture bonuses from pillaging improvements, this nerfs wartime bonuses in a way that was desperately needed for game balance—unless you’re Norway. If you’re playing our boy Harald, you still get these pillage yields. This honestly is pretty massive, especially considering all the incentives to pillage in the rest of Norway’s kit; this specific bonus is what Norway needed on launch to be competitive in the current meta. Norway effectively gets a lot more out of going to war than any other Civ in the game.Now, the Civ still has a lot of the same problems it did before, but considering the other buffs the Civ has received in other patches, they could honestly be much better than both I & anyone else is giving them credit for.

    Gandhi: India is probably the most buffed Civ in the patch, so you're probably wondering what they're doing down here in the lower tier. In essence, I think that India's buffs (namely the amenities from religion, which is the big one IMO) are more suited to Chandragupta. If you're playing Gandhi, you're more likely to have your religion naturally dominate others out of your city, and you'll lose out on those amenities. Despite that, Gandhi does get quite a bit out of the extra missionary spreads, which makes him all the better for religion. However, you mostly want to spread with Apostles, which this bonus doesn't extend to, which hurts it a bit in terms of practicality. Additionally, while Gandhi gets a pretty strong bonus to faith generation, it is inconsistent in terms of being AI-dependent and not all that strong in terms of generation compared to say, Russia or even Australia. The rest of India's bonuses either don't exactly apply to Gandhi (the Varu) or are still underwhelming (the Stepwell). Still, he's better off than he was previously, so that's a positive I think.

    Catherine de Medici: Ok, so I've seen some debate as to whether or not the Chateau was actually buffed, and if I may clarify my perspective, I do think the changes are holistically a buff. Though you get less "free" culture, you have a higher overall potential for culture than before; on top of that, the Chateau can get way more gold than you could previously, making it a more versatile improvement in my eyes. It's way more interactive too, though that's less of a statement on how good the improvement it is, and more on "is it fun to play with". Out of all the improvements buffed in the Late Antarctic Summer patch, however, I will concede that it's the "least buffed". On top of that, France still has the problems of their uniques outside of Grand Tour being not all that good, and that they don't come online until the Medieval Era; they're largely carried by Catherine's +3 combat strength throughout the game. Furthermore, I don't think France gets a lot out of the wonders introduced in Gathering Storm, so they aren't really buffed through those additions (maybe Országház and Sankore, situationally Panama Canal are good on them, but that's a stretch) Still, a buff is a buff, and France are (at least in my opinion), better off than they were, if only marginally.
     
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  6. greenOak

    greenOak Chieftain

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    Curious as to what people think of Phoenicia. I figured they'd be pretty average (just based on theory and other people's opinions), but I finally got around to playing them, and I must say they impressed me a lot. They legitimately felt top tier to me and I don't think I got a great map with them either. I have not finished the game but am in the industrial era and in a position to win via domination or space race.

    Settings: Huge, Fractal, Epic Speed, Legendary Start, Immortal

    Because of the nature of Civ, early game bonuses are king because they lead to snowballing - and Phoenicia is amazing in the ancient/classical eras. The bireme (which is easily spammable) can be great in the right conditions - I've seen playthroughs where people have taken multiple coastal city states in the early game. If there is ample room to expand on a different continent, their ability to move their capital is very powerful combined with Casa and the right policy cards. However, I want to preface with the rest of what I say with I was not able to do either of those. Phoenicia is great because of Cothon + Settler spam. With the government plaza + ancestral hall, +50% settler policy card, and provision Magnus, you can pump out cities faster than any other civ in the game. Spamming cheap Cothons also allows you to not only forego commercial hubs, but campuses as well. The latter requires free inquiry after getting a golden age - but this is trivial for Phoenicia to achieve given that the bireme and cothon can both be built in the ancient era. I will end this by saying that spamming settlers is significantly easier on immortal than deity (3 vs 2 settlers for AI, in general more liable to get attacked), but Phoenicia felt like one of the best early game snowball civs out there, and has been my favourite GS civ to play so far.
     
  7. acluewithout

    acluewithout Warlord

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    @Jewelrunna As with Khmer, I think Ghandi / India makes way more sense if you actually don’t found a religion.

    The buff to Dharma let’s you grow cities bigger (which Ghandi / India was already good at). The Missionaries buff lets you spread religion around your empire to benefit from all the follower beliefs and use less faith doing that, so you can spend your faith on settlers, builders, units, rock bands, whatever.

    Ghandi’s bonus is very slight: extra faith, and war against him is harder. But I think he’s largerly carried by India’s bonuses.

    One of the reasons Khmer and India get such bad rankings is because people think you should be founding your own religion with them, and I just don’t think that’s right. For both Civs, it’s largely counterproductive to found a religion.

    While I’m here. Spain. People keep complaining that Spain doesn’t get a bonus to founding a Relgion. But the thing is, it does get a bonus. Spain’s bonus is that it gets more out of founding a religion than other Civs, and so the opportunity cost is lower. And good grief, it does get an awful lot out of having a religion particularly after FXS linked loyalty and religion. Spain are very strong at religious victory and very strong at mid-game domination (a bit like Ottomans). Does that make them “strong” overall? Probably no, because you’re waiting so long for their bonuses. But they’re still very good once they get going, and provided you want to focus on religious or military dom rather than culture or science victories.

    Giorgia. As I’ve said elsewhere, at this point I think Giorgia are actually quite good and certainly don’t been a buff. The buff to Tasike is good, their UU is really quite good, and all their other bonuses work well. They’re real problem is that Medieval and Renaissance Walls are not good, which hurts the build-ability of their UI. Make Medieval and Renaissance Walls worth building, and Giorgia would be awesome.

    One wrinkle with Giorgia is that they’re another Religious Civ which is probably better off not founding its own religion. But it feels odd spreading other people’s religion to City States. It’s not a big deal. It’s not hard to found a religion, and the synergy with Papal Primacy and Religious Unity is so good, that it’s probably worth the effort.

    France. I think their UI is weaker overall, but yet also think it does actually work better. As you rightly say, it’s more interactive. France’s UU comes very late and doesn’t seem to synergise with anything. And their UA is fine but certainly not particularly powerful. France is “fine”, but they certainly don’t have strong bonuses beyond their leaders.
     
    Last edited: Apr 17, 2019
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  8. Pietato

    Pietato Warlord

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    After playing the (fixed) patch I can see a few power changes:

    - CSes were massively buffed in survivability, with the increase in troops and addition of walls. This means anyone who relies on them was also significantly buffed, particularly Hungary and Pericles. These two should be S tier now.
    - Early Diplomatic Favour sells for ridiculous amounts of gold, which means anyone who generates this early was significantly buffed. So Sweden, Murica, Greece, even Georgia if done right were buffed.
    - However, warmongers got NERFED as far as diplomatic favour goes, because you can easily go into negative generation through grievances if you war early. So Gorgo loses her bonus unless you are careful.

    The balance is still not there, with the rubbish civs needing buffs still (England, France, Canada), and now Diplomatic Favour needing to sell for less, but the game got A LOT better with CSes living and negative diplomatic penalties.
     
  9. Wingednosering

    Wingednosering Chieftain

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    Where do you all think the Ottomans rank? I've been pretty unimpressed with them so far since they're pretty much a vanilla civ until Industrial. I'm generally not a warmonger, but when I do go that route I tend to favour early aggression. The Ottoman bonuses simply come out too late.

    I feel like I'm just playing them incorrectly.
     
  10. MarigoldRan

    MarigoldRan WARLORD

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    Ottoman is Solid A. You obviously haven't been taking advantage of Serasker and archer rushes or Xbow/Cata push.
     
  11. Archon_Wing

    Archon_Wing Vote for me or die

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    Beeline construction, chop catapults, gg.
     
  12. MarigoldRan

    MarigoldRan WARLORD

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    Archon_Wing, you need to revise Canada's ranking. On Deity, they're at minimum B, and I'd argue A or S-.

    They're the only civ on Deity you can get away with builder, settler, settler build order. Furthermore, you can skip Craftsmen and Archery with them and prioritize Writing and Early Empire for faster settler production and campuses. They can consistently expand to 4-6 cities without war by the Classical era.
     
  13. Archon_Wing

    Archon_Wing Vote for me or die

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    Do you play with barbs off?

    And honestly, who cares about peaceful play?
     
  14. MarigoldRan

    MarigoldRan WARLORD

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    It's not peaceful play. Once you're at 6 cities you can easily prep for war. Generally, you hit around Ballistics or Xbow/Cata. You're pretty much guaranteed a solid econ as Canada.

    Barbs aren't a problem in the current iteration. Bug or otherwise, they're not spawning.

    EDIT: The main thing with Canada is that you can be peaceful at the beginning, which is the time period when you want to be peaceful. Later you can get as violent as you want.
     
    Last edited: Apr 19, 2019
  15. Kwami

    Kwami Warlord

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    He lives in a fantasy land where Canada is somehow immune to early game wars just because the AI would have to hit the "denounce" button first. As if that never happens, or something. Also, you won't be able to get away with skipping an army once the barbarians are fixed in the next patch.
     
  16. Wingednosering

    Wingednosering Chieftain

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    Going to make a thread about this so we don't derail this one.
     
  17. Kupe Navigator

    Kupe Navigator Chieftain

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    What about mother russia? Can't it do everything Canada do but better? Heck its unique unit is more stronger than canada's
     
  18. MarigoldRan

    MarigoldRan WARLORD

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    And it's pretty obvious to me you've never played Canada and are just theorycrafting.

    As a matter of fact, Russia is S. But they do get DOWed on early and you can't get away with builder settler settler with them.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 20, 2019
  19. Wingednosering

    Wingednosering Chieftain

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    They actually play quite differently IMO.

    Early game

    Russia - Defense and Lavras

    Canada - Builders and Settlers (you need some def against barbs, but way less)

    City Placement

    Russia - Spread far and wide. Place yourself on tundra at the start.

    Canada - You want to be near tundra, but not on it. Mid game, you can drop a few settlers on choice tundra resources or park spaces, but you should never start on tundra with your core cities.

    Districts

    Russia - Lavra, Theatre Square

    Canada - Theatre Square, Commercial Hub

    Late Game

    Russia - Rock band spam. The inevitable rock band nerf will hurt them.

    Canada - Mounties, mounties, mounties. Since rock bands are so OP, you probably want a few of those too until they get nerfed.

    Preferred Victory Types

    Russia - Culture, Domination

    Canada - Culture, Diplomatic

    Other

    Russia's bonuses kick in right away. Canada gains the surprise war immunity to start, but are otherwise all mid-late game for their bonuses.

    Canada has a huge emergency/diplomatic lean that Russia can completely ignore. This is why they want tons of CHs. Money wins you aid emergencies and helps you in pretty much every when dealing with the AI. Their extra strategics are actually mostly useless at the start since you don't need an early military, so you can sell them all off for tons of money and improved diplo relations to prevent those denunciations.

    There are other differences, but this post is long enough.
     
    Last edited: Apr 20, 2019
  20. MarigoldRan

    MarigoldRan WARLORD

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    People play Canada.
    They build slinger first and go for Craftsmen and Agoge and Archery.
    Settle on Tundra.
    Wonder why they suck.
    I facepalm.
     

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