[GS] Power Ranking the Civs (Gathering Storm)

[NorthernPalmyra]

Eleanor seems to be a very strong civ, loads of great writers & painters. Seadog is an outstanding unit for gaining control of the seas not sure about the court of love mechanic yet as I'm trying to flip some very loyal Canadian cities

Seadogs don't require niter which is a bit advantage when hitting the renaissance era

 

[acluewithout]

Canada suck.
England suck.
Norway suck.
Georgia still suck but not as much as they did.
Egypt are still bad.
Dutch leader sucks.

Firaxis are barely trying.

Man, that’s basically all the Civs I want to play. Sucks to be me.

The only good news so far is that Rome may have been nerfed, so may be more playable.

I’ll play Ottomans too if they’re not OP.

I am finding Eleanor to be quite a bit better than comments here lead to believe. Her assimilation game is true terror in the mid-game. Just play to outlast and absorb all your neighbors. I had a game where I absorbed the entire continent of higher-level AI largely by accident.

Edit: However, Eleanor is hard-countered by civs with extreme +Loyalty or +Pop mechanics. Dido is an obvious one, but humble Georgia also nullifies most of her power. The Ottomans and Zulu are also uniquely resistant to her gimmick.

Victoria is probably underrated; it's just her dream of inter-continental sprawl is very sink-or-swim. Ren Heroic age is still bonkers on her.

England in general is underrated by virtue of everyone focusing on bonuses that aren't having a half price Harbor. Guys, with the city state bonuses being added, Harbors are definitively the best general purpose district in the game. Half price Harbors are amazing!

Dutch needs some meaningful climate change related bonuses slapped on as a freebie.

Canada is the hardest to tune, because of how disjointed their bonuses are. Unlike other civs or units or buildings, you can't just change the numbers and fix them. There really has to be something new added that specifically makes starting in the worst possible places acceptable, like a hardy bonus to Tundra cities or such.

I’m not getting into the whole “is England strong enough or not” argument again. So 2018. Short version. Yes, half price harbours are nice, but let’s not lose our minds. Yes, England is less powerful than Vanilla (because of the changes to Pax B and no double trade routes) and RnF (because no British Museum, which was a beast). No, I don’t want England to be OP, just thematic and fun.

Second, there is no way I’m going to go all #fixengland again. Whatever my gripes, they’re at least playable and flavourful now, ie fun enough, and I can work with that.

...but, that said, England are basically a half price district, a few extra trade routes (maybe), a punchy melee unit that you only get in the industrial era and have to hard build, and dollops and dollops of flavour.

IMO, the RND is maybe a little underpowered (but, okay, maybe not if FXS fix the movement bug - open minded on that) and WotW really doesn’t do much even if power was boosted generally.

At a minimum, I think FXS need to buff the power yields for WotW (or better yet, retool the power bit to focus on just factories, which would be more useful given they come earlier). Even then, they’d also need to make Military Engineers better and tweak resources , power , tier 3 buildings etc. as well, otherwise England’s WotW would still be uselessn even with a buff.

 

[Weraptor]

Add the Rifleman unit to the game, and let Redcoats (and the French Garde) replace it. Probably nerf the Redcoats' combat advantage on foreign continents to something like +7. Vicky stronk. For Engleanor, introduce a Troubadour LUU, an early Rockband that can earn GWAM points from "concerts". Engleanor stronk.

 

[kb27787]

I am finding Eleanor to be quite a bit better than comments here lead to believe. Her assimilation game is true terror in the mid-game. Just play to outlast and absorb all your neighbors. I had a game where I absorbed the entire continent of higher-level AI largely by accident.

Edit: However, Eleanor is hard-countered by civs with extreme +Loyalty or +Pop mechanics. Dido is an obvious one, but humble Georgia also nullifies most of her power. The Ottomans and Zulu are also uniquely resistant to her gimmick.

Victoria is probably underrated; it's just her dream of inter-continental sprawl is very sink-or-swim. Ren Heroic age is still bonkers on her.

England in general is underrated by virtue of everyone focusing on bonuses that aren't having a half price Harbor. Guys, with the city state bonuses being added, Harbors are definitively the best general purpose district in the game. Half price Harbors are amazing!

Dutch needs some meaningful climate change related bonuses slapped on as a freebie.

Canada is the hardest to tune, because of how disjointed their bonuses are. Unlike other civs or units or buildings, you can't just change the numbers and fix them. There really has to be something new added that specifically makes starting in the worst possible places acceptable, like a hardy bonus to Tundra cities or such.

Add one food to tundra as Canada's UA and the civ is instantly fixed. Goes to A or B tier IMO. Since you have PLENTY of land to expand to and no threat of war unless you really anger the AI.

 

[Onii-chan]

I’ve only played about half of the GS leaders yet so I’ll refrain from making a detailed list until I’m done with the rest, but for the moment I’ll just chip in and say holy crap Canada is so bad x.x

Being able to build farms in tundra is pointless when the tile yields suck in it anyway, so you just end up with a bad starting bias and almost no food/production. Feels like the only way to play them is by settling the rest of your cities in normal lands and just ignoring their abilities. Hockey rinks come into play way too late to help you. Also diplomatic victory is pretty poorly balanced right now so getting bonuses aimed towards that isn’t particularly strong either

 

[Victoria]

Half price Harbors are amazing!

To get to build a holy site = 50 science
To get to build a campus = 75 Science
To get to build a commercial hub = 195 science
To get to build a harbour = 220 science

They are half price and have limited placement, quite a few civs have discounted districts, hell Hungary has more than 1 half price. The fact that the coast typically has less production, often needs a granary and coastal defences then I do not feel so convinced. It now gets half what a commercial hub gets from a CS right?

 

[Ken Taczdis]

Eleanor is super strong and super fun to play.Though I admit that Indie rockbands are totally broken. I was able to take 3 other capitals (20+) in 5 turns, still staying friends with all them civs

 

[BarbarianHunter]

I can only imagine the degree of self-loathing you must have had to decide to settle Quebec City in that frigid corner of the world.

I began creating settlers some time back, as the production of any given city was around 9. The thought was my horse unit, who I sent out to the seas, would find a suitable settlement area with some lux resources and choppable resources that could be levered into production. When I saw the AI had essentially settled the entire area and any favorable site was -20, I sent the settler to Quebec in disgust. That was around the time I denounced both Curtin (320 science/210 culture) and the Khmer. I began producing Mounties and 5 turns later DOW'ed them, hoping they would put me out of my misery. A few turns later, the screenshot from the other post.

 

[Vahnstad]

I am finding Eleanor to be quite a bit better than comments here lead to believe. Her assimilation game is true terror in the mid-game. Just play to outlast and absorb all your neighbors. I had a game where I absorbed the entire continent of higher-level AI largely by accident.

Edit: However, Eleanor is hard-countered by civs with extreme +Loyalty or +Pop mechanics. Dido is an obvious one, but humble Georgia also nullifies most of her power. The Ottomans and Zulu are also uniquely resistant to her gimmick.

Why. I had Dido as neighbour in my Eleanor game. I indeed didn't flip cities of her (even that minor one), except for one city-state she conquered (Mohenjo-Daro) and almost immediately lost to me.

 

[IvoryPavane]

Also which format are we talking about?

Single player? Immortal? Deity? King? Multiplayer?

I think a lot of the bonuses work better in certain formats. Didos settler spam is less effective in Deity where the AI has that built in, but it’s exceedingly more effective against fellow humans that have to follow the same rules as you.

So while Dido (as an example) might not be a deity darling, I’ve won nearly every MP game with her. Conversely, the Inca have come last or second last in nearly every game because their UU is pretty easy to play around as a human, but it’s VERY strong against the AI.

Georgia is similar as she is much more likely to get her religion against other humans, and fortifying your Civ while converting city states for Diplomatic Favour is shockingly effective, so she probably fares better against humans than Deity AI.

Granted these are small sample sizes based off one multiplayer group, but I do think context is key with lists like this.

 

[Archon_Wing]

Half price Harbors are amazing!

I know, that's why Phoenicia is pretty good. Oh, you're talking about England.

Unfortunately, I think that was the last straw for me. Without the musuem, the harbor and the sea dog is the only thing left. And English Harbors were never as good as Japanese ones either anyways. Saving a few production is little compared to how high those harbors can get and Japan is prone to save production because they are much better at defending coastal areas.

 

[ZeroSuitSenpai]

Why. I had Dido as neighbour in my Eleanor game. I indeed didn't flip cities of her (even that minor one), except for one city-state she conquered (Mohenjo-Daro) and almost immediately lost to me.

Coastal cities that Dido settles on her own continent are always 100% loyal regardless of what's happening around them. Tamar is basically permanently in a golden age, which makes her people resistant to loyalty pressure. One of Ibrahim's (unique Ottoman gov) promotions makes the city he's established in ignore loyalty pressure. Shaka gives +5 loyalty to his cities with a garrisoned corps.

That's why those leaders are strong against Eleanor.

 

[IvoryPavane]

To get to build a holy site = 50 science
To get to build a campus = 75 Science
To get to build a commercial hub = 195 science
To get to build a harbour = 220 science

They are half price and have limited placement, quite a few civs have discounted districts, hell Hungary has more than 1 half price. The fact that the coast typically has less production, often needs a granary and coastal defences then I do not feel so convinced. It now gets half what a commercial hub gets from a CS right?

I think both CH and Harbour get 2 gold each, so the same.

Also, there’s probably an argument to be made that the buildings in the harbour are better than the CH. Market gives gold and a trade route, lighthouse gives food and a trade route, but it’s likely going to give a better trade route to your average Civs because water trade routes are better (on average) than land trade routes. Shipyard is a really really solid building and the 8-10 production is really valuable.

Counter argument is that the Harbour buildings are just making up what the coastal city lacks, but I still think pound for pound the Harbour buildings are better, and especially so if the district is cheaper. (Unless you gain specific bonuses from the CH like Mali, but that goes without saying)

(This is why I think people are sleeping on Dido, because although she doesn’t do anything hugely remarkable herself, she does take existing strats and do them so much better. A guaranteed golden age into Free Inquiry, spamming 4-5 gold harbours, 2 free early era trade routes and using Reyna and cards to double adjacencies or harbours leads to a fairly explosive start in science and gold, but you have to be pretty on the ball to turn that into something useful.)

 

[Archon_Wing]

Well I think the bigger problem is that Harbors come on a detour tech, so the extra science to spend on it early on is notably bad. You also have to research Astrology, a pretty useless tech if you don't get religion and can only be boosted by luck.

The problem is that you're creating cities that are going to be useless for 15-20 turns and even if you find coast, it doesn't guarantee they'll have many sea resources. Yes, some places can be Magnus'd but not all. In this case you have to form some kind of triangle (probably with a hub or government plaza) to do anything, and of course any science boost is temporary and also comes at the expense of monumentality unless you do a heroic medival age which is the only time I'd even bother, but many would find it too late.

If you are lucky enough to come up situations with lots of sea resources, then it's not really the strength of the civ at all, but rather just the map spawn, and all England really contributes is a cheaper harbor. And how many of these can you really build?

This is why the only civ I'd give credit to this for is Japan, because they can make high adjancency harbors without any map spawn luck. But even in these cases, you're still spending a district slot in a place that has trouble building them. And for that, we also have Germany that can actually build harbors in the first place. But then again they'd rather build hubs anyways....

This is sort of like what I think when I hear strats that start with "If you have Goddess of the harvest".... It's more about how the pantheon itself is strong; it doesn't really matter what civ actually uses it. Unless you're a civ like Mali or Indonesia that guarantees it (almost)

 

[IvoryPavane]

Well I think the bigger problem is that Harbors come on a detour tech, so the extra science to spend on it early on is notably bad. You also have to research Astrology, a pretty useless tech if you don't get religion and can only be boosted by luck.

The problem is that you're creating cities that are going to be useless for 15-20 turns and even if you find coast, it doesn't guarantee they'll have many sea resources. Yes, some places can be Magnus'd but not all. In this case you have to form some kind of triangle (probably with a hub or government plaza) to do anything, and of course any science boost is temporary and also comes at the expense of monumentality unless you do a heroic medival age which is the only time I'd even bother, but many would find it too late.

If you are lucky enough to come up situations with lots of sea resources, then it's not really the strength of the civ at all, but rather just the map spawn, and all England really contributes is a cheaper harbor. And how many of these can you really build?

This is why the only civ I'd give credit to this for is Japan, because they can make high adjancency harbors without any map spawn luck. But even in these cases, you're still spending a district slot in a place that has trouble building them. And for that, we also have Germany that can actually build harbors in the first place.

I suppose I was thinking of this specifically from Phonecias perspective (and why I think she does current strats “better”), as she can pump out settlers to a point where she doesn’t really need monumentality, she can pretty much settle anywhere on her contintent to get the juicy coastal resources, and while the science is temporary, I’ve found in my games that the gold out has let me straight out buy the lighthouse and shipyard in most of my cities, giving a strong production boost.

Though I will note I’m not comparing this to other Civs, nor saying this is the ultimate strategy to rule them all. Just that I’ve found it to be very effective start which has carried me to numerous MP victories on her.

In terms of England, I... think she could use a little help because ultimately the RND is straight up worse than the Cothon, and Phonecia really plays the colonial aspect of it better. It’s hard to compare +4 loyalty with loyalty immunity. I haven’t played much of England but hoping WotW is good?

 

[Archon_Wing]

she can pump out settlers to a point where she doesn’t really need monumentality, she can pretty much settle anywhere on her contintent to get the juicy coastal resources

Well, Dido could probably still use it for builders though. But then again she also could do the heroic age thing since she doesn't care at all about entering a Dark Age. I think that's actually a huge asset of being able to forward settle as much as you want as long as its coast since loyalty pressure gets worse the higher difficulty you go....

I think that ability is very strong.

 

[Victoria]

Well I think the bigger problem is that Harbors come on a detour tech, so the extra science to spend on it early on is notably bad. You also have to research Astrology, a pretty useless tech if you don't get religion and can only be boosted by luck.

This

 

[Leucarum]

I'm starting to appreciate Canada because with them a single Iron or Horse tile in the tundra can feed a timely early Swordsman or Horseman rush.

This is a bit RNG as it won't always happen but when it does I have had some luck with it too. I don't know what other people's experience is but even on diety the AI hasn't ever denounced me early game as Canada (even with Chandragupta as a neighbour, but it could just be blind luck on my part). As a result *if* you can outproduce your opponents you can also move your into the perfect position for an alpha strike with little to no fear of retaliation. But it's way too random to be a reliable strategy and I don't think it's how the developers intended Canada to play

Add one food to tundra as Canada's UA and the civ is instantly fixed.

I doubt it would fix them but it seems a no brainer that their this or better farms should be a thing. Given how much food they gave the inca I don't know why they were afraid to give some more food to Canada.

Fundamentally it seems like Canada has lots of ways to not lose but no advantages to winning and the two aren't the same thing

 

[IvoryPavane]

Well, Dido could probably still use it for builders though. But then again she also could do the heroic age thing since she doesn't care at all about entering a Dark Age. I think that's actually a huge asset of being able to forward settle as much as you want as long as its coast since loyalty pressure gets worse the higher difficulty you go....

I think that ability is very strong.

This is true, though I’ve usually gone for the Gov building which gives a free builder with every city because I want the two free trade routes early (and the even cheaper
Cothon)

The science tech route certainly isn’t ideal (and I don’t think I’ve ever founded a
Religion as Phonecia so Astrology is particularly painful), but I’ve found I usually make up the science (and then some) during the two following Golden Ages

 

[Jewelrunna]

To fix England, I think there’s a few specific changes you could make that would bump them up a few tiers.

Workshop of the World: You might want to rework this ability entirely, but if we’re going to improve this ability, we might as well go all in. Maybe make it so districts that have buildings which are powered have a 5% or 10% increase to their total yields (accounting for adjacencies & building yields). This would improve scaling for England in the late game and give them something to look forward to. You could also make a systematic change where railroads, like in Civ V, increase the production of cities which are connected via them. You could then make England get extra production through this mechanic, since they were the first country to really utilize the railroad.

Pax Brittanica: I think the most sensible change for this one is to extend the bonus back to founding AND conquering the first city on a continent; colonizing other continents just isn’t viable in Civ, and it never has been—it’s much less so in this game where loyalty is a thing. There also should be a Rifleman unit in the game which the Redcoat would replace, allowing Victoria to upgrade into her unique unit.

Court of Love: I see this ability as really inconsistent; I’ve seen some people say this ability was mostly irrelevant, and I’ve seen some examples where it was completely busted. I liked the idea in this thread where Eleanor should get a Troubadour unique unit that’s sort of a unique “soft” Rock Band that doesn’t replace them, and comes in the late Medieval Era. This could let Eleanor compete in both peaceful domination and have a unique niche in the culture game too. This might make that ability too strong, and I’m uncertain if Court of Love needs a buff—if Eleanor is weak, it’s because France and England are weak. But if I were to make a change, that would be it.

Sea Dog: I hate this unit. It’s just a vanilla Privateer most of the time. Also, have they patched this unit yet? Because I know it’s ability didn’t even work originally. Just replace this unit entirely with the Ship of the Line as a Frigate replacement. There’s a lot of unique Frigates in the game, but if you make this unit just a super-Frigate (maybe a solid +5 combat strength), it would allow England to completely dominate the seas in Renaissance through Industrial Era—as they should, and currently don’t.

Royal Navy Dockyard: This district is predicated on colonial playstyles, which we know to not be very viable. I think a sensible decision would to be move one gold from the foreign continent placement to the general city adjacency (meaning you get +3 instead of +2). Maybe you could even keep the +2 on foreign continents as well. Or just add a gold adjacency in EVERY RND for each continent you have a city on. I think these would all be sensible changes to make this district go from just okay to good or great.