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[R&F] Power Ranking the Civs (Rise and Fall)

Discussion in 'Civ6 - General Discussions' started by Archon_Wing, Nov 26, 2018.

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  1. Archon_Wing

    Archon_Wing Vote for me or die

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    At the start of the year we had a Power Ranking thread to see how things were at before Rise and Fall came out. Now that we've had nearly a year to play Rise and Fall and yet another expansion coming, I think it's a good idea to see where things are at now. The game hasn't changed so drastically that explanations would change, but I'm sure people have found new revelations as they played the game a bit more. I would know, since former assumptions of mine which didn't work on paper, or did work on paper turned out different.

    Well okay, I just wanted to post my list after playing the DLC civs and I already did so on Reddit.

    Yes, we've had many threads discussing individual civs and their spots, but not as much as them as a whole. Also, please don't turn this into a "Buff England" thread; we have like 50 other threads for that.

    And again, this is just my opinion and native to my own play style and settings blah blah blah this is not an attack on your dignity if I disagree.

    Also please explain yourself. Yea, it's a bit hypocritical of this post here, but I don't want to bore you too much.... yet. But some of it is here.

    God (trivializes difficulty)
    Sumeria
    Aztec

    Great (2 difficulties easier)

    Greece (Both)
    Australia
    Rome
    Nubia
    Korea
    Scythia
    Mongolia
    Macedon

    Good (1 difficulty easier)
    China
    Indonesia <<---- honestly, haven't played them enough. They seem sorta overpowered.
    Arabia
    Persia
    Germany
    Russia
    Kongo
    Cree

    Ok (Neutral)

    India (Chandragupta)
    Japan
    France
    Netherlands
    America
    Brazil
    Zulu
    Poland

    Low (1 difficulty harder)
    India (Gandhi)
    Mapuche
    Scotland
    Norway
    England
    Khmer

    Trash (I feel like Alt-f4)
    Egypt
    Georgia
    Spain

    And yea, I came to terms that Korea really is that good.

    Explanations
    (God/Great part 1) 1-5 : https://forums.civfanatics.com/thre...ivs-rise-and-fall.638894/page-2#post-15283187
    (Great Part 2) 6-10 https://forums.civfanatics.com/thre...ivs-rise-and-fall.638894/page-3#post-15284361
    (Good part 1) 11-14: https://forums.civfanatics.com/thre...ivs-rise-and-fall.638894/page-4#post-15289405
    (Good part 2) 15-18: https://forums.civfanatics.com/thre...ivs-rise-and-fall.638894/page-4#post-15293395
    (Ok part 1) 19-22: https://forums.civfanatics.com/thre...ivs-rise-and-fall.638894/page-4#post-15295911
    (Ok part 2) 23-26: https://forums.civfanatics.com/thre...ivs-rise-and-fall.638894/page-5#post-15297458
    (Low) 27-32: https://forums.civfanatics.com/thre...ivs-rise-and-fall.638894/page-5#post-15298921
     
    Last edited: Dec 11, 2018 at 2:00 AM
  2. Pietato

    Pietato Chieftain

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    Korea and Nubia are god-tier. Korea cannot be matched for science, and Nubia just dominates everything.

    Cree is great tier. No one matches their wealth and growth.

    Scotland is higher than where you placed them. They have good science.

    Georgia is alone in super-trash tier. Every single thing they have is trash.
     
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  3. Tech Osen

    Tech Osen Chieftain

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    For Domination Zulu's should probably be higher, those armies really steamroll everything.
    And with enough rivers around the Dutch can get some decent adjecencies on their campusses as well.
     
  4. kryat

    kryat Chieftain

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    Indonesia is probably in the “great” tier. Their early faith means first dibs on pantheons, whether for GoH, Earth Goddess, or whatever else they might need.

    Their double envoy thing is pretty good. And really stretching it, but their starting location in TSL Europe map is solid.
     
  5. AmazonQueen

    AmazonQueen Chieftain

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    It would if it wasn't for relics from goody huts. Theres no certainty about them getting to choose Earth or Harvest Goddess. All their bonuses are dependent on being coastal as well.

    I'd rate Spain higher, probably as OK. Their UU is excellent.
     
  6. Navelgazer

    Navelgazer Chieftain

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    Agreed on bumping Nubia and Korea into God Tier and Indonesia into Great. I love playing as both Gorgo and Pericles but Greece is "Good" at best IMO (the Hoplite is nothing and the Acropolis is OK. The UA and LUAs are good through.)

    Egypt got a little better after patching (is no longer quite as garbage as they were.) Truthfully Georgia might be alone in the bottom tier.
     
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  7. Morningcalm

    Morningcalm Keeper of Records

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    IMO despite the early bonuses, Greece is weak. Scotland should be way higher in that ranking. Agree that Georgia is trash level (sadly, but this is what you get with a wall-focused civ and a leader who is inaccurately portrayed as wantinf to keep foreigners out).
     
  8. OmegaDestroyer

    OmegaDestroyer Chieftain

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    Agreed about Scotland. So long as your people are happy, it's ridiculously easy to get great scientists and great engineers.
    I'd put Macedon in the God Tier. While not as dominating as Sumeria right out the gate, once you get a decent army out, you're unstoppable.
    I think America should be in the Good tier. It's strong defensively in the beginning and only gets stronger as the eras progress.

    Georgia needs its own tier:

    Georgia Tier:
    Georgia
     
    Last edited: Nov 27, 2018
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  9. Disgustipated

    Disgustipated Warlord

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    For me it's Macedon in God tier for warmonger civ and Scotland in god tier for peaceful civs. I've shown in my recent game (and games last late winter) Scotland can out perform Korea in science. I did it yet again. And with less campus districts. Scotland is just awesome.

    Other Rise and Fall civs I rate fairly well are Korea for science victory (not as good as Scotland imho). Mongolia and Zulu are okay for warmongering, just a little bit later than civs like Scythia, Aztecs, Macedon etc. Dutch and Cree are great all around civs, but I wouldn't put them god tier. And Mapuche are an okay cultural civ. Georgia is in a class all by themselves at the bottom. :lol:
     
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  10. Navelgazer

    Navelgazer Chieftain

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    Arabia, meanwhile, is a tough one to place, because the UA goes from basically being blank at lower difficulties (where getting religion is very easy and the issue is getting one early enough to get the tenets you want) to amazing at higher difficulties. But they also have one of the very best UUs in the game and the Madrassa is definitely nice (and there's no question you'll get use out of it.) "Good" doesn't seem quite right for them but we're also sort of crowding out the top tiers.

    Generally, I feel like "excellent at single victory condition" should probably rank "good" at most, while Great should be reserved for Civs that can reliably accomplish several different win-cons and God for those who can do so on any map. But that's just me.
     
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  11. Disgustipated

    Disgustipated Warlord

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    My list:

    God (trivializes difficulty)
    Sumeria
    Scotland
    Macedon

    Great (2 difficulties easier)

    Aztec
    Greece (Both)
    Australia
    Rome
    Nubia
    Korea
    Scythia
    Mongolia
    Cree
    Kongo
    Netherlands

    Good (1 difficulty easier)
    China
    Indonesia
    Arabia
    Persia
    Germany
    Russia
    Zulu
    Poland

    Ok (Neutral)

    India (Chandragupta)
    Japan
    France
    America
    Brazil

    Low (1 difficulty harder)
    India (Gandhi)
    Mapuche
    Norway
    England
    Egypt
    Spain

    Trash (I feel like Alt-f4)
    Georgia
     
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  12. BarbarianHunter

    BarbarianHunter Chieftain

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    A couple of differences I can see relative to my playstyle jump out at me. I would raise the following civs…

    1) Spain, Conquistadors + religion = perpetual golden age (powerful).
    2) Persia, Pairidaeza’s are OP. You can keep the immortals.
    3) Russia, Religion + GWAM’s for future theatre squares.
    4) Zulu, their corps are unstoppable mid game.

    …and lower Sumeria. War carts are overrated. For my low casualty style of play, they stall out (ie. start getting slaughtered by the cartload) fairly quickly @ higher difficulty levels.
     
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  13. criZp

    criZp Chieftain

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    Good civs: good at conquest early game
    Bad civs: the rest
     
  14. Archon_Wing

    Archon_Wing Vote for me or die

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    Thanks for all the responses. I'll probably explain them all later and also why I should have thought twice and not put my list first. ;)

    There is great reason for putting Nubia in God tier, and if you think that, that's fine. However as stong as Pitalis are, I think the other civs like Sumeria and Aztec have stronger other bonuses that last over time and are nearly as solid in the war department.

    I don't consider Korea god-tier because they have no military bonuses early and can be overrun early. Notice how every civ above has some kind of advantage early game. They are undoubtedly strong early game, but nobody cares how good Seowons are if your capital is under siege by war carts, Nubian Archers, Legions, or Eagle Warriors. This is also why I think Australia is stronger than them. They have bonuses that hit earlier and more importantly get stronger if you try to supress them. With a little abuse they constantly have over 100% production.

    And by this logic, this is why I don't rank many other civs such as Zulu or Scotland that highly because it takes a while to make their impact.

    At the other extreme, this is why I think Macedon is really strong, but not balanced enough to be a god too. If you spawn isolated, or just with not enough early conquest targets, you become very behind the curve.

    Finally, Georgia? Lol, well, I'm not going to defend the Georgia as worst vs 2nd worst, but I think the Protectorate War can be used fairly reliably and Khvesurs are actually not bad units. It's not a hill I'll die upon, but I insist on it since Missions and Conqs just take forever to put into play.

    Indonesia is God-tier on water maps. You can forget about any of the other fake naval civs.

    And yes, Kongo is god-tier when it comes to culture wins, (salted fish) but that seems to be under dispute since it seems like some think they're really bad and other things they're really good.
     
  15. Pietato

    Pietato Chieftain

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    Korea's battle advantage is always having technologically superior units. The AI dies hard with them, but they are god-tier for players.
     
  16. Archon_Wing

    Archon_Wing Vote for me or die

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    But when the AI shows up @ turn 20 with 6 warriors, some civs are going to come out stronger. Suddenly, even America and France have value. And are > Korea at this point.

    I labeled Sumeria and Aztec God tier, mostly because I think they're basically immune to most bad starts (probably 95%). Or at least I'm not able to name starts that hose them but not others.

    Like you could put civs on an isolated flatland landmass with plains and they wouldn't be as badly hurt. I mean, sure that's the minority of spawns, but that's what I think of "God". Sure, there's probably maps with only 1 tile on a glacier, but those are probably not playable by any civ anyways (cept Indonesia lel)
     
  17. BarbarianHunter

    BarbarianHunter Chieftain

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    You have a point with Sumeria. For me though, I would rather be rolled by the AI and have a quick end to my misery than continue in a long, bland, Sumerian game. Zulu's are better. Gives the AI time to use all that production bonus to build me a bunch of holy sites for monumentality.
     
  18. Archon_Wing

    Archon_Wing Vote for me or die

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    Well, that's another thing. The list would change heavily based on preferred map and settings. The above thing about 6 warriors is based off of ai bonuses that twist the game.

    Larger maps would naturally favor Korea and Australia. And as stated before Indonesia would be god alone on island but they're already so strong on land maps....

    Yea, they should be considered one of the best civs in the game, it's just that sadly stuff is out of whack and warmongering basically counts as 2 victory conditions.

    I'll tell you what though. Every civ I played in the first two tiers needs a nerf IMO **cough**
     
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  19. Navelgazer

    Navelgazer Chieftain

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    I guess I'll post my own list (probably with reasoning for some choices) NB - within tiers I have no particular order in mind:

    GOD TIER (i.e. can salvage bad starts and make a reliable run at multiple victory types)
    Sumeria (rocking Science as well as Domination and is fine with the flat land that I normally hate.)
    Aztec (It's gonna be war in the early game but then they can pivot to just about whatever seems most feasible)
    Nubia (Similar to Aztec in early conquest and pivot, with nice broad bonuses that last all game, plus a little boost to district building to off-set the desert bias.)
    Rome (Largely due to Magnus + Legion jank, though the monument and roads bonuses shouldn't be forgotten.)

    GREAT TIER (Like God Tier but map-dependent, super-focused on one win-con, or easy to take out early)
    Indonesia (You'll get an early pantheon, most likely Earth Goddess if you want it, which you will, then it's a snowball to an interesting victory. The Jongs are amazing but require a naval map. Kampungs also want a naval map but are OP if you can use them.)
    Arabia (Would be God Tier but have no early bonuses to protect them. Mamluks are super-knights, and they can go for basically any win-con they want.)
    Macedon (Amazing but very singularly focused. Science is possible but tricky compared to other civs.)
    Australia
    Germany
    Korea (Easy to take out early, plus the hills requirement for the Seowon making them somewhat map-dependent, and a super-scientific focus balance out an otherwise OP civ.)
    Russia (Wants tundra, and also wants other civs ahead of it in science and culture. Cossacks and Lavra are undeniable though)
    Zulu
    Mongolia

    GOOD TIER (Great if you can make effective use of specific niche strategies, or powerful but too-late-rising)
    Scotland
    Khmer
    Kongo
    Poland
    America
    Scythia
    India (Chandragupta)
    Netherlands
    Persia (God Tier pre-nerfing)

    NEUTRAL TIER (Powerful in broad ways that don't focus on any particular win-con, but also don't give them any direct edge to exploit.)
    Cree (Amazing at empire-building, but having no direct bonuses towards anything in particular knocks them down to Neutral. Still fun though!)
    Japan
    China
    France
    Greece (Gorgo)
    Greece (Pericles)
    India (Gandhi)

    TRICKY TIER (More difficult to win with, niche strategies require more luck and investment, map-dependent, tough starts, etc.)
    Spain
    England
    Brazil
    Egypt
    Norway
    Mapuche

    GEORGIA TIER (Georgia)
    Georgia

    (edit: forgot to include Mongolia in earlier post. they are... fine. I recognize that in the hands of a player more into their strategy than I am, they are probably Great, so there they are.)
     
    Last edited: Nov 27, 2018
  20. Disgustipated

    Disgustipated Warlord

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    Cultural victory? My Pericles game is still my fastest cultural victory to date.

    LOL
     

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