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[R&F] Power Ranking the Civs (Rise and Fall)

Discussion in 'Civ6 - General Discussions' started by Archon_Wing, Nov 26, 2018.

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  1. Archon_Wing

    Archon_Wing Vote for me or die

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    Good civs (part 1)

    Here we have what I think are civs in a great spot. No adjustments are really needed for them and they really show the good work put into civ design in this game.

    11. China

    China has a better economy at the start thanks to the extra charge on the builder. Yes, you can get more charges later, but early game builder charges are especially valuable and it doesn't help that China can easily get Pyramids if they get the chance. In these cases you could basically skip liang and have 5 build charges and this isn't a small deal. With liang, a builder nearly builds a wonder on their own. R&F also has some key early wonders China would easily get like the Temple of Artemis, the aformentioned mids, the Great Library, and the Oracle. In fact, the whole oracle fast theater gambit is probably best done with China (or Kongo, which is its own set of culture OP'ness)

    Getting those better boosts also help, though they were nerfed a bit in R&F. Also it's quite hard to take advantage of the 10% as overflow is simply lost.

    The Great Wall isn't a very good improvement and in fact pretty useless as a defensive structure as you need to occupy the whole thing. It is merely a thing for flight tourism but at least they have more builder charges. They also have nothing military until the crouching tiger which sucks, but at least the ranged attack means China is a pain to attack in medieval where they'll turtle up after getting all those wonders.

    Probably one of the best builder civs next to Korea, and Rome.

    12. Indonesia

    Water civs tend to have an Aquaman problem where they are great on the water and useless elsewhere. This is especially bad in Civ 6, because water tiles are crap by default and thus you are handicapped from the start. Indonesia gets around this by.... also using lakes too. As a result, most of your major districts can be placed along the coast or lakes to help with adjacency which helps, especially if you get Nan Madol.

    Their best ability is to start with +2 faith on coastal/lake cities. This will get them a good pantheon and perhaps a good shot at religion too. The Kampung also allows you to make water tiles better but it takes a while to get. Shipbuilding is sort of a detour.

    Being able to faith buy naval units is kinda cool but given how much easier it is to chop them for most of the game, that's not really a big deal. The Jong is strong though, and will guarantee dominance of the seas at mercenaries.

    They're a much more subtle civ because no one bonus really stands out that much, but they manage to be the strongest naval civ due to its speed but also have enough going to them elsewhere so they aren't dependent on water either.

    13. Arabia

    Most of the worst civs in this game are religious civs and no doubt religion itself is very weak, due to it being a high risk/low reward mechanic. It costs a lot to found a religion with no real guarantee. Your religion could be wiped out and it's expensive. Oh sure, you can do a gimmick victory should you spawn next to Kandy/Yerevan and build Mt. Michel but that's just the game handing victory to you-- in most cases Religion is simply a noob trap, much like half the wonders in the game-- you think you're accomplishing something, but you're just setting yourself back. Arabia is the first civ in this list that has no early bonuses, but in exchange they gain consistency because they know things will fall into place for them.

    They can go for religion and can build normally since it gets handed to them, though reserving space for Holy Sites is still a challenge. Fortunately their worship building is cheap too, so you could pick it up right away aafter founding a religion and gain a science boost.

    The Mamluk is also solid as it means they can always do chariots into knights without worrying about iron or anything. As a result, they can always break out even in tough situations.

    You also get more science if other people follow your religion, but that is not particularly important. The most important thing is you know what you can rely on and can be part of the religious game while still focusing mostly on other things. Basically, all options remain on the table for them, making them a great choice.

    14. Persia

    Persia treats surprise wars the same as formal wars. Early on, this doesn't matter because penalties don't really exist and everyone does surprise wars anyways. Later on, not having to need to denounce without suffering extra war weariness is quite the boon. The extra movement is their strongest ability and Persia is particularly good at stealing civilian units and maybe even weak cities and this scales nicely with difficulty. The boosts to internal trade also help while you're still dealing with war and trying to keep the economy up. Also helping is the Pairidaeza which is one of the best improvements in the game that only gets better when districts come up. Not only does it keep gold coming in, it's also one of the best choices for the flight cultural victory.

    The immortal is so-so. It's a hybrid archer-sword unit, but hybrids generally don't perform well in strategy games as it sorta half asses both. Well, it's really, really good at destroying spearmen, all 2 of them. Sure, mass immortals will beat mass swordsmen, but it's rather expensive to maintain an army of them, and it'd be too late when cities get too strong and the ranged attack doesn't really help. They do make good support for horsemen though, but that's also just as expensive. Still, the unit with its ranged attack will probably have a longer shelf life than swordsmen and also does not require resources.

    They also get additional loyalty for garrisoning units so you're more likely to actually hold the cities you capture, which is good if you fall into a dark age or something.

    Persia is a pretty unique style that can harass enemies into oblivion, and have quite the economy. As long as they find some victims to snipe, opportunities to get ahead should be common.
     
    Last edited: Jan 18, 2019
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  2. Jewelrunna

    Jewelrunna Chieftain

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    The Mid-Tiers


    25. America

    This might be the first time I’ve ever made a tier-list where America has been as high as “mid-tier,” so good job to Teddy! The most obvious change to America is the rework to Founding Fathers, so that’s probably as good a place to start as any. In the base game, Founding Fathers existed as not only the most boring ability in the game, but it was pretty darn inconsequential too. Any bonuses that you might get from it either operated so far in the background that you didn’t really notice, or weren’t all that powerful in the first place; a far cry from some of the awe-inspiring Civ abilities we’ll be getting to later to be sure. Now in R&F, America gets a free wildcard policy slot for each diplomatic policy slot they would have had normally—this, while being a late game ability (and if you’ve followed my tier lists, you know my stance on early game vs. late game), gives America a lot of versatility in how they adapt to situations. You might end up using some of those slots for diplomatic policy cards anyways, but versatility is always a good thing. Plus, if you manage to get the Forbidden Palace and Potala Palace (an ironic combination when you really think about it), that’s two extra wildcard slots—something any other Civ cannot have access to! So while the overall utility of this ability is limited based on how late you get access to Founding Fathers, when it does come into play it’s quite potent.

    The rest of America has been unchanged for the most part. Their +5 combat strength is a really potent ability for both early game expansion and dealing with barbarian encampments. The Film Studio unique and the national parks upgrade really make them perhaps the best Civ for closing out a Culture Victory. However, the previous downsides to America still apply: their unique units are lackluster—the Mustang being the literal worst unique unit in the game, and the Rough Riders being hurt by existing as high-production units that can’t be upgraded into (though the unit itself is pretty good for what it is)—and most of their bonuses only coming into play once reaching the late game, making their early foundation a little shaky. However, I think the rework to Founding Fathers is just strong enough to bump them up to mid-tier.


    24. Japan

    Japan sort of suffers from “Brazil syndrome,” in that they’re sort of a jack of all trades Civ while not being excellent at one in particular. However, what separates them from Brazil is while they might not be “great” at one single victory type, they are pretty darn good at a few. Let’s get the weakest aspects out of the way first: the Electronics Factory is a late game building that isn’t as awe-inspiring as something like the Film Studio; yeah, an extra production with some bonus culture is nice, but do you really need that from a Factory? Not really. And the combat bonus for land units adjacent to the coast/naval units in shallow water is pretty niche, albeit the kind of niche that you can plan for; you’ll have to bend over backwards to get it to work, but it is certainly workable.

    However, the 50% bonus to constructing districts is a pretty massive boon to have—half off on early game districts can really help get cities off the ground. If this bonus applied to some of the more “core” districts—campuses, commercial hubs, and the incidental industrial zone—this might be good enough to boost Japan up a tier all by itself, but unfortunately it’s relevant for only some of the less important ones. However, this is still quite helpful for early production and units, rushing an early religion, or simply moving towards a cultural victory, so don’t sleep on it. Japan also can get pretty strong adjacency yields through Meiji Restoration, but it’s not among the strongest adjacency abilities in the game. Still, it offers the hard to come by Theatre Square adjacencies, which is a solid asset.

    Now let’s talk about the Samurai, as this unit can be a fairly contentious one. Prior to the most recent patch, yeah, I’d go along in saying that the Samurai were a fairly weak unique unit. But now, I think I’m comfortable in saying they’re pretty darn solid. They now have the same combat strength as Knights while also being cheaper and having access to the Melee promotion tree. They also do not require resources to build, and do not lose strength when taking damage. People undersell this ability a lot, and because of it Samurai are legitimately scary now. I’d feel very comfortable in calling them one of the best unique units in the game now, if not for two factors that are shared with the Khevsur and Berserker: they're locked behind military tactics and have to be raw built. Despite this, I still think the Samurai are far underrated from how good they actually are now, and need to be respected.

    Overall, Japan are a pretty well-balanced Civ. They can reasonably perform above average in every victory category barring a Science Victory, at which they are just average. They do require some more advanced city planning than most Civs, so one must be quite meticulous when thinking about their building strategies. If I were to pick the most "mid-tier" of mid-tier Civs, I'd say that Japan would be a pretty safe bet.


    23. Poland

    Poland is one of the Civs that you’ll find the widest range of opinions regarding them on this forum. Some people will deride them as near-bottom tier, and some will say they’re sleeper OP. Me? I think they’re aight. Not bad, not great—just decent.

    Perhaps their strongest asset is that wildcard policy slot. While it’s not as good as Greece’s extra wildcard slot (Poland’s is converted from a military card) it does provide Poland with a good deal of flexibility in the early game, getting access to both God King and Urban Planning. This makes Poland perhaps one of the only religious Civs that actually has the ability to rush an early religion, getting both the faith needed for a pantheon and the production to build Holy Sites. And their Culture Bomb is one of the better versions of the ability in the game; it’s easily controllable and is tied to a district/improvement that is often built on borders—meaning that you’re likely to be able to use it to steal territory. What’s more is that simply stealing this territory pushes Poland towards a Religious Victory, as Jadwiga’s ability converts any city that has its territory stolen by Poland. This ability also makes Poland’s Holy Site adjacencies better, while making relics a whole lot better as well via some really nice yields—this also, in my opinion, makes Poland a much better candidate for cheeky relic strategies than the Khmer. From these two abilities, Poland already has a pretty solid niche carved out as a religious-expansionist powerhouse.

    Of course, the Civ does not stop there, and the rest of the uniques are also pretty good. The Winged Hussar is the strongest land unit in the Medieval Era, outpacing even the mighty Knight. It also pushes back units that it attacks, and if the unit is unable to be pushed back, it does even more damage. The Winged Hussar, however, is not upgradable into, as it does not replace the Knight. You have to raw build these things, and they can be quite expensive, which is a recurring theme across weaker units. But nonetheless, these things are ruthless when properly utilized. The Sukiennice is also a strong unique building; replacing the Market, it makes your international trade routes grant production, and your internal trade routes grant gold. It essentially makes your trade routes grant the most important aspect of the opposite trade route, which makes choosing one over the other feel less worse. This is a pretty unique and helpful trait for an early game building to have, and it really upgrades early game trade routes—and it’s even relevant into the late game.

    So you might be wondering why Poland’s so far down here? I mean, I’ve been fairly positive about the Civ so far, haven't I? Well, there’s a few things holding them back. Being so religiously oriented can kind of hold Poland back—in that they must prioritize religion over science and armies—and in order to fully capitalize on their relics, they either need to get lucky or be able to build Mont St. Michel. Poland is geared to be extremely successful when going for a Religious Victory, and while that’s certainly true, they’re less strong when aiming for any other victory type. And while the Sukiennice is pretty good, the Winged Hussar is held back by being so expensive. So while they’re great on paper, in practice they’re less overwhelming—simply aight.
     
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  3. nzcamel

    nzcamel Nahtanoj the Magnificent

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    Given that there is only one government (after Chiefdom) that doesn't give a diplomatic slot; and then also only one late game government that gives a second diplomatic slot...I don't think calling Founding Fathers a late game ability is accurate.
     
  4. Jewelrunna

    Jewelrunna Chieftain

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    It is in the sense that you don't get that wildcard slot as early as Greece & Poland, and it's an ability that scales. Early game you might end up using that slot for a diplo policy anyways, depending on how vital nearby city states are. Once you get Potala Palace and Democracy government, however, then it becomes really powerful. But you are correct in saying that it's not exclusively a late game bonus, and it's certainly more helpful early on than the previous version was.
     
  5. nzcamel

    nzcamel Nahtanoj the Magnificent

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    Well, yes. They have it in the ancient era; whereas you will only get it in the classical (and yes, not immediately if you start with autocracy). Still early game; though I take your point that there is a significant advantage in having the extra wildcards of the other two right off the bat.
     
    Last edited: Dec 3, 2018
  6. Archon_Wing

    Archon_Wing Vote for me or die

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    I would say Founding Fathers are an early game ability because diplo starts are useless until the spy ones. They can take oligarchy or republic without issue which most civs can't

    But diplo cards get better late game and if you slot them anyways, it doesn't matter.
     
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  7. DWilson

    DWilson Where am I? What turn is it?

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    Founding Fathers is neither underwhelming or overwhelming. It's merely whelming.
     
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  8. Archon_Wing

    Archon_Wing Vote for me or die

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    Good Civs (Part 2)

    And now for more examples of quality

    15. Germany

    No food, no problem!

    With the Royal Society and Magnus, Germany's production ability is simply not as important as it once was, and now commercial hubs are also a bit slowed down with the trade route requiring a market. Despite all of this, Germany still remains very strong and reliable. Plus not every map has loads of resources to gather. Germany will still reign supreme there.

    Germany's extra card slot means they can always keep military production up while keeping some kind of utility and given how important those cards are at the start, it's always nice. Later on, this affords Germany a bit of flexibility during warfare, mostly by taking whatever they need for the war. Their anti-city state ability is good for defending against enemy CS's from a flank or just taking one to snack on if you have no conquest targets. If you're sick of your rival getting too much faith, well, there goes that CS....

    Their cities can hold an extra district, meaning food and housing is much less of a problem for Germany. You will just need to grow to size 4 to get whatever you need. Of course, like Japan, it still takes a while to get all those districts in and districts are expensive so this gets more difficult as the game goes along. Fortunately, the Hansa is rather good and does not rely on hills for bonuses and is cheap. And commercial hubs give it adjacency, making it sort of a thing where Germany should treat both districts as one and this is where the extra district slot comes in handy. Well it sorta says so in their opening description anyways.

    They don't really have any trump cards though, and it's a grind until you get Apprentinceship, meaning Germany will never be that overpowered, but at the same time, they probably are the most flexible civ in the game simply because they are almost not terrain dependent at all and can come out strong even in the worst of situations.

    16. Russia

    You can never have enough land.


    Another solid contender for consistency, Russia is like that annoying person that parks in two spaces. Their territorial ability to gain 2 rings worth of land is very powerful because tile expansion is normally very slow and you usually have to focus on settling with good tiles in the first ring. Russia on the other hand just picks the best spot and is just as fine. They'll usually get more than their fair share of land.

    They can also make better use of tundra, in that it's usable, but not particularly amazing. It just really turns that into a plains tile with faith, and that probably doesn't excite most people. But it does mean tundra areas with lots of resources can be taken by Russia.

    The Lavra is the best Holy Site, which well, isn't really that great. It's cheap though and gives you cultural great people. However, this ability is not as good as I once thought it was (this is why I don't consider them top tier anymore), as you still need somewhere to put the works and you just end up with a bunch of unemployed writers. It is good for denial though; maybe Russia can pursue a religious victory while blocking cultural victories for example. I still wouldn't call it a mainstay district, but at least you can get a religion which I can't say for most other civs. I still think Arabia is a bit better at this.

    The cossack can be upgraded to, so if you lack resources, this will be your last chance most likely to break out. The Grand Embassy also helps you catch up, especially on higher difficulties, when you'll probably need at least one of science or culture.

    But like Germany, they have some good abilities, but nothing that strong.

    17. Kongo

    All your art are belong to us

    Kongo is one of the few civs that is polarizing because they are completely locked out of a victory condition. I'm not really sure what it was, but it probably doesn't matter anyways. The bigger issue is that other civs not going for religion can still make use of it if they conquer Holy Sites early, and Kongo can't even do that. Their UU is also sort of odd, being resistant to ranged attacks but also being a bit weaker. It's probably a net bonus, but do note swordsmen are meant to attack before walls appear though so it's a mixed use. It doesn't require iron though.They also get more bonuses from relics and this can really up their production but you can't really rely on finding relics, and nor do you have the Holy site to hold them. Their art also does the same thing, but it's specifically sculptures and Great Artists tend to be all over the place and crappy anyways. So why is Kongo any good?

    Well, they're basically really really good at culture rushes. With bonuses to Great Writer points and having 5 slots in the palace, Kongo is the biggest candidate for doing the salted fish strategy involving the fast theater/oracle gambit. Russia might get writers sooner, but Kongo can actually use them. If you get one amphitheater up, you'll have enough space for 3 writers. Later on artifacts also continue to boost their production and cities, while the Mbanza is a neighborhood that actually has good timing. It still isn't very good.

    The final icing on the cake is the Great Merchant points, and with some work you can have some big and wealthy cities.... which doesn't really matter in Civ 6, but hey, fast culture pushes can make for easy advancement. Their UU will probably keep you safe too, so that means Kongo should be safe most of the time.

    18. Cree

    Stacking gold to the ceiling

    The Cree are another consistent power, and that's because the game basically hands you a trade route at pottery. Not just trade capacity, but the trader comes free too, so starting next to a city state is great for Cree and the currency boost is free too. With trade routes being harder to get, getting a free one earlier means a lot. This ensures they'll have some gold or production going and that helps since early economy management can be challenging. The Mekewap is a strong improvement, affording you 1 housing and production, but with more bonuses depending on resources for more gold. Oh, and their trade routes give even more gold. Meanwhile, traders claim tile for even more gold saved.

    The Okihtcitaw while not bad suffers from being more expensive than the regular scout but it is great for harassment and stealing builders. They also get shared vision from alliances, but this is sorta w/e unless you own Kandy.

    And.... that's really it for them. But that's not bad at all since it comes so early.
     
    Last edited: Dec 11, 2018
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  9. Jewelrunna

    Jewelrunna Chieftain

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    How about the Māori folks? I'm very excited to get my hands on them and rank them alongside our current representatives, not only because they're so unique but they have many excellent bonus while a number of super limiting features. Put those two together and they'll either be really bad or top tier. Can't wait to find out! Anyways, let's continue with the current expansion, finishing up with...

    The Mid-Tiers (Cont.)

    22. Kongo

    Bingo, bango, bongo; I want to nuke the Kongo. Seriously, without fail, Mvemba’s Kongo always becomes one of the most powerful opponents I run into in my games, and it always grinds my gears. Now, part of that is due to the fact that he isn’t crippled by rushing a religion because—well, because he simply can’t. He just builds districts that actually help him scale. But that can’t be it, right? I mean, there must be some other things going for a Civ that can’t found a religion? Well, yes actually; the Kongo has an assortment of abilities that can make them quite strong in the right circumstances.

    Let’s get the nerfs out of the way first—outside of England, Kongo is probably one of the Civs that got hit by the nerf bat the hardest, with their 200% increase to Great People points (Merchants and all the Cultural GP to be specific) getting reduced to just a 150%. That was an extremely strong bonus for the Kongo, and the nerf hurts; however, that is still a strong bonus that is useful for any victory type (Merchants) and is great for a Cultural Victory (everyone else). The bonus for Relics, Sculptures, and Artifacts is also incredibly strong; if you get lucky enough to find a Relic in a goodie hut, you now have one of the strongest starts available to someone in Civ. Similarly, if you accrue Sculptures and Relics later on, the Kongo scales incredibly well. Under the right circumstances, Nkisi is arguably the best UA in the entire game, and even if you aren’t met with the best-case scenario, it still is remarkably strong. I also have nothing but the highest praises for the Mbanza, which is one of the best unique districts in the entire game (I really cannot understand how you all underrate this district). Not only is it a Neighborhood that you unlock in the Medieval Era, two whole eras before the vanilla Neighborhood, but it also gives you gold and food to help fill all that new housing. The Kongo is easily the best “mega-city” Civ in the game, and formerly held the title for the best tall Civ in the game—if not for a R&F that we’ll get to much later. (I realize that “tall & wide” discussions are kind of irrelevant in Civ VI, but the Kongo gets much more out of settling fewer cities than other Civs.) Sure, the forest/rainforest tile requirement is kind of a bummer, but it’s not like you’re going to be without those tiles if you play as the Kongo. You also get to save your high appeal tiles for Wonders and Seaside Resorts, making the Kongo even better for a Cultural Victory.

    Now comes the point where I have to sell you on the idea that Religious Convert is indeed actually a bonus for the Kongo, and not a malus. Sure, being unable to win a Religious Victory is a bummer, but here’s a comment I made a while ago that explains why this isn’t necessarily bad thing. Also, you can still use Mbanzas to get Apostles, and if you have Mont St. Michel or Yerevan, you can employ Relic strats, which the Kongo gets arguably the most out of—ironic, considering that they’re not a religious Civ. The Ngao Mbeba is probably the weakest aspect of the Civ—a Melee unit that has a lower combat strength than normal isn’t exactly inspiring, but their defenses against ranged attacks and forest/rainforest movement abilities makes them pretty good for an early game push. From there, you simply get to turtle and coast to whichever victory type you want; the Kongo is especially great for Culture Victories, but by virtue of how much production and science (the latter via population and nearby rainforest) they can reap, they’re also good at Science Victories.

    In my opinion, the Kongo are a pretty misunderstood Civ. People think their LA works just against them, when it’s really not that bad of an ability. The other assets of the Civ can be really powerful in the right circumstances; however, the Kongo has to get a bit lucky and not get overrun by other Civs early, so they’re really not that strong overall. Despite all that, this Civ has ludicrous potential, and is a true feast or famine Civ, so the middle of the pack is probably the best spot for them.


    21. China

    Yeah… So I’ve moved China down about two whole tiers since my last tier list, which might raise some eyebrows; let’s talk about why. Plain and simple, I think two of their uniques are not good, one is overrated but still ok, and one is amazing. So let’s start off with that amazing one first, the First Emperor. Not only is it great for an early economy—as all your builders get one extra charge, getting more bang for your buck—but it’s also the best wonder-spamming ability in the game. Sure, China’s only lasts for two eras, but within those eras, China can essentially guarantee getting any wonder they choose to beeline. Additionally, there are many super impactful wonders in the era that China might want to rush: Pyramids, Colosseum, Mausoleum, and Petra just to name a few. This is one of the best Leader Abilities in the game, and I really can’t sing enough praises for it.

    From here, unfortunately, it’s downhill for Qin. Dynastic Cycles is among the most overrated abilities in the game, but it’s still pretty decent. While on paper it sounds amazing, because it could potentially save you 10% science and culture across the tech/civic tree, that’s assuming you’re going to be getting every eureka and inspiration, which is unlikely. An extra 10% off of techs and civics only some of the time isn’t exceedingly powerful, but it ranges from being underwhelming to pretty good, depending on your mileage. The rest of the uniques from China leave much to be desired, however. The Crouching Tiger is really only useful for defense, and also must be raw built; they are quite good at defending cities and are cheaper than Crossbowmen, which is nice, but they’re hardly going to be useful for expansion or much else. And the Great Wall, while an awe-inspiring sight in real life, is decidedly weak in Civ VI. It is one of the weakest tile improvements in the game, rivaled only by the chateau; it requires a ton of builder charges to really be useful—and even then, it’s not amazing—and its purported uses on defense aren’t even really that good.

    China gets off to such a nice start with the First Emperor, but nothing else they have is really all that great, simply good at best. Still, they’re far from bad and can run away with the game in the right circumstances, so a mid-tier placement seems fitting for the Middle Kingdom.


    20. The Netherlands

    The Netherlands are yet another jack-of-all trades Civ, but they happen to be one of the better Civs in this category. They can scale pretty incredibly as the game goes on, but can be held back by a lack of bonuses in the early game, barring their very strong Civ ability. That ability, Grote Rivieren, grants +2 adjacency bonuses to a Commercial Hub, Campus, Theater Square, and Industrial Zone built on a river. Unfortunately this does not stack across multiple river adjacencies, but this is still a great bonus. +2 might be outclassed by some other adjacencies, but this is still a lot for the early game. On top of that, these districts are highly impactful ones that you want to build in most cities, so provided you can settle a lot of rivers (which you should be anyways) you’ll be getting a ton of extra yields.

    The rest of the Netherlands’ features are much more situational, but they can all be powerful under the right circumstances. Well… barring one. Radio Oranje is a contestant for “worst leader ability in the game,” as it really just offers you so little. +1 Culture in the early game can be handy, but early on you’re going to be relying on internal trade routes, so you won’t be able to capitalize on it as effectively. And the bonus loyalty from those internal trade routes is more or less useless. The Zeven Provincien is pretty strong; you’re only going to get so much mileage out of a naval unit, but one that deals extra damage versus cities helps to make this unit one of the most powerful of the bunch. It arrives at a pretty beneficial point too, where if you’re playing as an expansionist, you more than likely have consolidated dominion over your own continent, and are ready to move onto other landmasses. The Polder is among the most inconsistent improvements in the game. In many cities, you might not even have a suitable location to place them, and even if you meet that requirement, you might only have one Polder—not great for an improvement that is intended to be chained together. However, in situations where the Polder is useful, it becomes an amazing improvement, and only scales even more from buildings, wonders, and added bonuses from moving down the tech tree. You can’t always count on it playing a role, but when the Polder train leaves the station, nothing can stop it.

    Overall though, I’d classify the Netherlands as being a very middle of the pack, well-rounded Civ. They have one very solid ability that can be reliably counted on, and two uniques that while maybe are not the most reliable in the game, they can really pack a punch when they come into play. Hmm, let’s see, am I forgetting anything? Civ ability, two uniques… Nope! That’s everything!
     
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  10. Lily_Lancer

    Lily_Lancer Chieftain

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    Some important facts about R & F.

    1: It is not very easy to avoid a dark classical on a random map with no save load. Dark classical loyalty penalty do influence your classical conquer.( Still depends on map) So Civs with an ancient UU/UI/UD is really helpful. (since it adds golden age points) For example, Cree UU is useful that way.

    2: After classical everything will be golden, it's hard to prevent that, since the age system is broken and you actually develop 2~3 ages in one age's time.

    3: In most cases there will be an emergency when you conquer the 1st civ. That is helpful since when you eliminate that civ it gives a large amount of gold and help you form a great army of knights.

    4: 1~3 are the most important facts for Rise and Fall games. And the Civ rankings shall be based on that. After that, seemingly strong bonus, such as +10 on cavalries, are only helpful in few circumstances and only saves you 1~2 turns actually.

    5: Late game money can be generated by neighborhood gold, now it's 300~400 per city, if you build the Ben it is 600~800. In a patch it doubles the gold. The neighborhood gold allows you to buy at least 5 spaceports, but you have to be careful with the travel time of Reyna and Magnus, and prepare workers in advance.


     
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  11. DWilson

    DWilson Where am I? What turn is it?

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    I think you need to remember that the way you play is not as intended, so it's not that the age system is broken, for most it's fairly effective.

    This is not to say you play wrong, in fact you clearly play quite well, but it's just not something the game is designed for.
     
  12. The googles do nothing

    The googles do nothing Chieftain

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    What speed?
     
  13. Archon_Wing

    Archon_Wing Vote for me or die

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    Ok (Neutral)

    These civs aren't bad. They usually have what it takes to get ahead, and the player should be making good use out of their abilities throughout the game. However, they also tend to be more situational and these civs often do not do well when the map works against them although it's not too uncommon.

    19. India (Chandragupta)

    Elephants that soar

    Both Indian leaders are more prone to war, but Chandragupta is definitely the one more adept at it, and given most of India's abilities aren't good, this is pretty important. He can declare an early Territorial War and have his units move faster, making it ideal for a fast war. You also get a decent combat boost.

    Now, at first glance, this looks like a crappier version of Persia's ability, and you'd be right. The extra combat strength is noted, but having to get to Defensive Tactics and fulfill the criteria for a Territorial War is a lot of work. It lacks the pure speed of a Persian attack. Fortunately, India has the Varu to go along with it, and having elephants that glide across the battlefield at increased strength is scary. The Varu might be expensive, but it's high power and ability to even hold its own against later era units or at least be annoying is a strong asset. Later on protected Varu (make them into corps/armies) can still debuff enemies, and can even be protected by ships for the elephant Navy.

    And that's pretty much it. The remaining Indian abilities are not very good. The stepwell is basically a really good farm, but that really makes little impact and I honestly forgot what Dharma does. Basically, get to war.

    20. Japan

    But Japan had the best campuses of all time!

    Japan is a decent naval power that is a jack of all trades but really master of none. Adjacency bonuses matter more now with Rationalism and all you need to do is pack everything tightly and you can get campuses that match Korean ones, Theater Districts that can match Greek ones, and IZs that can match German ones, and Holy Sites that can match Russian ones. That's nice and all, but the issue is with building all these districts in the first place to enjoy all these bonuses and if you have amenity/housing/food problems it may take a long time to actually work.

    Well, that's not exactly true. Japan also produces three of these districts faster, though only one of them is consistent enough to be built, though one thing of intrest is they're not half off.... you get double production towards them which you can use to exploit overflow (until gathering storm). They also can get Great Generals pretty fast thanks to the encampment, and this can help with early conquest.

    If you lack iron, the Samurai is here to help, even if it does come at Military Tactics (aka the garbage bin tech), but of all those UUs that come from there, the Samurai is on top, basically being a knight without horses.

    Their ability also works nicely with harbors and probably are the best naval economic civ. Once there was another civ that could match them, but I can't really remember.... think they were deleted in Rise and Fall unfortunately.

    The coastal combat bonus is quite nice, since it means your galleys will always win, and coastal locations are easier to defend.

    So it's quite a lot of bonuses, but besides the Great General one, Japan tends to be able to do a lot of things but it never goes as well as it seems like they would on paper. But at least they have the options.

    21. France

    Nice art; I'll take it

    France has come a long way since in the past their special ability was to be spammed with more notifications than anyone else, but Rise and Fall made Diplomatic Visibility into an actual ability, ensuring they get an early +3 combat bonus against other civs. It doesn't help against CS's or barbs, but at the very least you can defend against a hostile neighbor as well as making them quite good at early conquest. As the game goes along, they also get the early spy for a listening post and getting printing would be nice. They can negate the Mongolian bonus which helps a lot.

    Spies can also steal tech boosts and works of art, and gold, but those things tend to be more of a catch up mechanic since France will probably be behind due to lack of economic bonuses, and they really need to go to war early. They can build most of the best wonders of the game a bit faster, and also get a bit more tourism out of them, but 2x of nearly nothing is still nothing. So they can be strong, but the pressure is really on you to start the snowball early.

    22. Netherlands

    I just need that lake, mind if you hand it over?


    Being able to make good use of rivers means their districts will usually be of decent quality, and getting campuses and theaters to +3 is always nice. I don't think it's as good as Japan's ability but it does hit sooner. To aid in culture, trade routes elsewhere give +1 culture which is acutally quite helpful early game, especially if you're trading with a CS. The loyalty from internal on the other hand, pretty worthless.

    The polder is a very strong improvement and now that it's no long as annoying to build, is something that makes you want those lakes. Being able to culture bomb on harbor isn't bad, but is rather small.

    They have a nice Frigate to help them win at the seas, and that's sorta it. So they're pretty decent despite their specific bonuses, unless you lack rivers, in which case you're screwed. But that's not too common and most of the time you'll have decent science and production.
     
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2018
  14. acluewithout

    acluewithout Warlord

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    Yeah, you basically nailed it.

    Point 5 isn’t relevant for me and maybe other players, because we don’t do the Neighborhood gold thing. But the rest of your post is spot on, and is why RnF is quite frustrating. It’s so hard not to exploit Civ VI.

    I really love the chat in these sorts of threads. But it’s weird talking about rankings when the game is so exploitable. It ends up feeling like people are asking “who would win: the hulk or thor”? It’s just all a bit made up, or depends on playing the game in a way that deliberately ignores or avoid certain mechanics or dynamics.
     
  15. Navelgazer

    Navelgazer Chieftain

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    It's interesting to me, and maybe because I play on Emperor most of the time and not Deity, but I've never once had a problem getting a Classical Golden Age. They're always the easiest golden age to reach, actually (finding goodie-huts, meeting other civs, and clearing barb-camps doing most of the work for you.)

    I believe that Lily_Lancer is playing the game well, though differently from how I play it. That's just an interesting difference to my experience.
     
  16. Archon_Wing

    Archon_Wing Vote for me or die

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    On higher difficulties the AI will always beat you to most huts and meeting CS's first. Also, combined with a map that has few barbs or few anything period, it's pretty easy to hit a dark age unless you go out of your way to avoid it, which is a problem by itself.
     
  17. Lily_Lancer

    Lily_Lancer Chieftain

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    It depends. Here're some sources of ancient golden age points besides goody, CS, barb and natural wonder. (which I guess only 4~5 points if you don't have a good luck)

    Capturing capital: +4
    Eliminate a Civ:+5

    These two looks good. But you shall really care about time that you eliminate a Civ in the last turn of ancient instead of in the first few turns of classical.
     
  18. nzcamel

    nzcamel Nahtanoj the Magnificent

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    So the Great Wall is true to life then? :p

    I think the Age system is broken, but more from an immersive angle. I don't want to spend most of the game in a golden age; yet I do. The challenge to me should be avoiding the dark age; and from there it should take a significant effort to get to golden. It seems to me though that once you've avoided the dark, it's not that hard to get the golden.
    It's lucky golden ages aren't a real world currency, or they'd be being devalued by the game! Lol
     
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  19. DWilson

    DWilson Where am I? What turn is it?

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    I think it's fair to say it could be tweaked and rebalanced, though I would also note that I haven't had the same experience.

    I'm certainly not an amazing player, but I would guess I'm better than the median. That said, the only times golden ages have been easy for me were when I have military campaigns or build the Taj Mahal (which I think is fair). I must be missing something in my gameplay, because without fighting a war I mostly fall somewhere between definitely getting a dark age and middle of the normal age range (typically right on the border of normal and dark). Maybe I don't explore enough? I spend a lot of time just focused on infrastructure, and the time I get a golden age are when I really work for it (again, barring aforementioned two exceptions).

    Now, one thing I think would help is to make it much more stringent know higher difficulties (I currently don't feel the effect of the variance much), so that the best players can still feel a challenge when doing well on harder settings. But, if I am right in my estimation that roughly half the players would be only as good as I am or worse, then I think changing it to make it a lot harder overall, as you seem to imply should happen, would lock many players in perpetual dark ages.
     
  20. nzcamel

    nzcamel Nahtanoj the Magnificent

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    Well I wasn't saying getting to normal ages should be harder. You often need 20-30 points to get to normal, and then only another 10 to get to golden. It's the latter I want raised.

    I'm not an amazing player either. Usually I float at king & the next one up. And sure - it's tricky to balance the age system for every player.
    Personally I think they should reduce the points that taking a barb encampment gives by 1. That may be enough to nudge it in the direction I'd like...
     

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