Powerful/weak wonders

[WTBCzero]

There have been a number of threads on which civs are overpowered and which could do with a boost. I thought we could do the same with wonders.

I don't think there are any overpowered wonders in Civ 5 at the moment. The Great Library comes the closet (with the CS slingshot), but since you can do the same with social policies (through the liberty tree) it balances out I think. It isn't the same as the CS slingshot was in the early days of Civ 4, that was definitely unbalanced.
Part of this, I think, is that production seems to be harder to come by in Civ 5 than in 4, and so building wonders tends to be more of an effort.


On the other hand, there are certainly some wonders that seem to me to be barely worth building. The Colossus seems a little weak to me because its bonus applies only in one city. The fact that the AI loves to build it means you need to have good production in the city, but to take advantage of the wonder's effects you want as much food as possible (to grow the city to work as many sea tiles as you can), rather than production. I suppose you could use a early Great Engineer on it, but you are much better off using him for something else.
The Great Lighthouse doesn't have much going for it either. Water units already go at a decent speed. Furthermore, early in the game you aren't going to be moving units across water frequently (on most maps anyway). It might help you late game with intercontinental invasions, but you aren't going to build it in the early game just for that.
Then there are the defence wonders, like the Great Wall or the Kremlin. These are annoying if the AI builds them, but would you build them? If you are in a position where building these wonders would help you, then you want to use your hammers to build units, not wonders. This is pretty much the same problem that we had with Chichen Itza in Civ 4.


Those are the wonders that stand out for me. Thoughts?

 

[Nyanko]

United Nations is a very strong wonder...

Some of the happiness wonders are very specific, and I don't find much use for them. They should add a secondary effect to them to make them better. Agree with colossus and Lighthouse too

 

[PimpmyCiv]

There have been a number of threads on which civs are overpowered and which could do with a boost. I thought we could do the same with wonders.

I don't think there are any overpowered wonders in Civ 5 at the moment. The Great Library comes the closet (with the CS slingshot), but since you can do the same with social policies (through the liberty tree) it balances out I think. It isn't the same as the CS slingshot was in the early days of Civ 4, that was definitely unbalanced.
Part of this, I think, is that production seems to be harder to come by in Civ 5 than in 4, and so building wonders tends to be more of an effort.


On the other hand, there are certainly some wonders that seem to me to be barely worth building. The Colossus seems a little weak to me because its bonus applies only in one city. The fact that the AI loves to build it means you need to have good production in the city, but to take advantage of the wonder's effects you want as much food as possible (to grow the city to work as many sea tiles as you can), rather than production. I suppose you could use a early Great Engineer on it, but you are much better off using him for something else.
The Great Lighthouse doesn't have much going for it either. Water units already go at a decent speed. Furthermore, early in the game you aren't going to be moving units across water frequently (on most maps anyway). It might help you late game with intercontinental invasions, but you aren't going to build it in the early game just for that.
Then there are the defence wonders, like the Great Wall or the Kremlin. These are annoying if the AI builds them, but would you build them? If you are in a position where building these wonders would help you, then you want to use your hammers to build units, not wonders. This is pretty much the same problem that we had with Chichen Itza in Civ 4.


Those are the wonders that stand out for me. Thoughts?

I don't think any wonders are overpowered. Great Library is one of the better ones for its slingshot, but even then that means a specific tech build and timing to make full use out of it.

Stonehenge is one of my favorites (early culture boost for quicker SPs and border expansion, and the GE Points are bound to produce a free wonder or manufactory). Hagia Sophia plus gardens and the right side of the Freedom SP tree is gonna lead to alot of extra Great People. If you get Chichen Itza to boot, thats a lot of additional Golden Age turns.

I always find it comes down to early production. If its good and I can build an early wonder quickly (especially one that provides GE points) you'll probably find me building most of the wonders throughout the game. If early production is poor, I won't be building many at all.

That said, Collosus and Lighthouse are at the bottom of the list. Happiness wonders are not priority and defense wonders are more or less to prevent the computer from getting them (except in a cultural victory attempt... which never happens for me as I don't play with my skirt on ). The one wonder I want every game is the statue of liberty.

 

[The_Quasar]

I agree... United Nations is probably the strongest Wonder at the present time.

I think it would be good to have "secondary wonders" available for those players and AI that have missed the first, and only chance at a specific Wonder. Perhaps getting only half the advantage of the main Wonder. Not for all wonders, but a select few which might improve play.

For example, iirc the Pyramids give 50% extra work rate by workers... perhaps another, secondary wonder, could give 25% extra work rate. This secondary wonder would only be available after the Pyramids had been built, and would not be available to the civ that built the Pyramids.

There are more than enough possible artifacts to name these secondary wonders after, a little thought and imagination brings a few to mind.

I think having secondary wonders available (not for every wonder, but for the most important ones), would help to make the game more interesting, give help to other civs when you get a runaway (including a player runaway), and generally improve AI competitiveness...

 

[Strategist83]

Great Wall is very powerful. Do recall that its effects last throughout the game. Build the Great Wall and you're practically impervious to attack for the whole game.

Kremlin is the same - absurdly powerful. It's because you are playing the useless AI that you don't want these defensive wonders. Against actual opponents they are pure gold.

 

[Ermak-]

If you get 3+ sea resourses in a port capital, building colosus is highly desirable. With reg lighthouse you get instant 'cottage spam' in all ur sea titles plus sea resourses get to be a mega squares ( especially if you get a port early). All that gets magnified by markets/banks/ sertain policies since it becomes the coin 'base'. Collosus can be quite powerful given the right starting location. And no AI buils it first, because competative players never play singleplayer.

 

[Morningcalm]

Himeiji Castle, both for its culture and its defensive bonus. Because the enemy will frequently push into your borders as you push into theirs (during a war), the defensive bonus is almost always useful.

Weak wonders: Sydney Opera House (comes too late). Pentagon (virtually useless, by that time you're so rich that upgrading units is a piece of cake). There are others.

 

[Supr49er]

Himeji Castle is a must have.
Sydney Opera House is too late.
Others are very situational.

 

[moysturfurmer]

Himeji Castle is a must have.
Sydney Opera House is too late.
Others are very situational.

Sydney Opera house is so good BECAUSE it comes so late. Social Policies are a lot harder to come by in the late game.

 

[VirginiaRounder]

I say that the Great Wall in the hands of a reasonably skilled player is the best; it makes him darn near impossible to beat militarily. In the hands of the militarily unskilled AI, it's only so-so of course.

 

[Stefanskantine]

I usually try to get the Forbidden Palace if I'm planning a big empire. Oracle is another I find very useful- relatively cheap build cost, free sp, early GS points. Unless I'm planning a very specific slingshot strategy, i'd rather have a free SP than a free tech.

Depending on the situation, I may try to build Machu Pichu and Big Ben. If I have a lot of trade routes/gold focus. But these are situational.

On the weak side, I don't believe I've ever built the Lighthouse or the Colossus. I could imagine colossus being potentially useful with an unusually resource rich coastal start. But the Lighthouse is really pretty much worthless. Lighthouse needs to keep is current bonus, and add an additional effect. I would suggest ONE of the following:
1) +25% build speed of naval units
2) barbarian naval units can't enter borders
3) +25% naval combat strength

 

[Randall Turner]

Pentagon (virtually useless, by that time you're so rich that upgrading units is a piece of cake).

For me the Pentagon is one of the, if not even the, most powerful wonder in the game. I'll often delay upgrading from a (Rifleman/Cannon/Mandekalu Cav)-based army solely on its acquisition, and I'll line up policies (scientific revolution), great people (scientists to reach the triggering radar tech and an engineer to speed building it), and research agreement shenanigans just to slingshot & build it.

Your mileage may vary depending on what sort of game setup you use, but I'm always on Huge, Marathon and Immortal. As a largeish civilization on huge maps, I'll very typically have a forty/fifty unit army (counting ships) waiting to upgrade.

Even with the "professional army" policy (which I also beeline to), upgrading a Caravel to a Destroyer is nearly 1,000 gold, and the Mandekalu Cav/Cav/Tank/Modern Army upgrade for a single unit is even more.

Basically, the Pentagon is worth 20K - at least. Often more like 40-50K. And that money comes in very, very handy later to build multiple Atomic Bombs/Nuclear Missiles and the like. <shrug>

It may be that if you don't need the money you're playing on smaller maps or with a more economic and/or small army civilization. Depends on play style, I guess. But I've got (checking...) 2,274 hours of Civ played, and the Pentagon is in my top three. (I don't count the United Nations, I try to avoid diplo wins, feels like cheating.)

Another very powerful wonder I don't see called out is the Cristo Redentor - its 25% reduction off policy cost is much more powerful than a 25% boost, as the boosts are cumulative off the city base, while the reduction lowers the base cost. ie, with a full-up city and all appropriate policies, the 25% reduction is equivalent to a 140% boost. ie,

10 base culture production with 334% boost is 43.4 points/turn.
4300-cost policy in 100 turns.
25% reduction = 75 turns.
140% boost = +14 = 57.4 points/turn = 75 turns.

 

[NicTeos]

Stonehange as soon as possible can be very strong, but loses it's advantage rather fast. Together with oracle you can finish a tree rather fast. Great library is nice, but it's also situational.

One wonder I always want to have : Statue of liberty. +1 production for every specialist together with civil society and secularism and other social policies are making specialists very very powerful.

Second one I may want to have is pentagon.

Most other wonders are nice to have or wonders you don't want that another nations get.


Anyway wonders are not that important than in former civs, but their advantage in civ 5 is, that they are often not that more expensive to build than buildings and that they don't cost maintenance.

 

[Camikaze]

It's hard to say whether late wonders are weak or powerful. It really depends on the situation. I would say that the Sydney Opera House is pretty weak on balance, but there aren't going to be all that many situations in which it is really useful. If you need it in a cultural game, for instance, then you're running a bit behind anyway. The Oracle is more powerful than it because you get the benefits of the social policy for the whole game.

Also, Persia and Chichen Itza.

 

[Zyxpsilon]

Pentagon_Cristo Redentor_Big Ben_Statue of Liberty_Himeji_Kremlin_Hagia Sophia.
This means War, you draw first blood -- Rambo.

 

[Smote]

For me:

Great Library
Porcelain Tower (but only via Great Engineer)
Himeji (only via Great Engineer)
Statue of Liberty (only via Great Engineer)
Pyramids (for combat roads -> 2x worker + pyramid gives army a nice tactical boost, like longswords that can move 4 tiles a turn)
Hanging Gardens (when have 4+ cities and production to spare)
Big Ben (only when coupled with 100+ gpt and the 25% discount Commerce policy)

 

[Save_Ferris]

Stonehenge can double your culture if made early enough, and the oracle is powerful too.

 

[ColinTH]

On the weak side, I don't believe I've ever built the Lighthouse or the Colossus. I could imagine colossus being potentially useful with an unusually resource rich coastal start. But the Lighthouse is really pretty much worthless. Lighthouse needs to keep is current bonus, and add an additional effect. I would suggest ONE of the following:
1) +25% build speed of naval units
2) barbarian naval units can't enter borders
3) +25% naval combat strength

I agree with your opinion of the Great Lighthouse - I would like to see embarked units given an extra move upon building the GL.

The colossus is my 2nd favourite wonder since the last patch, unfortunately for me I rarely manaage to build it because I always build the Pyramids first.

 

[CYZ]

To me the colossus is pretty high on the list. It is very situational, as you need a good coastal site with growth potential. But in the right capital city it is very strong, considering it lasts the entire game as well. I think people underestimate a slow, permanent boost compared to some wonders that have very obvious, but temporarily benefits.

I've only once build the pyramids, and that was purely for the GE point. I often go liberty and get a free worker plus production bonus. So to me pyramids seem like the most useless wonder.

Even the lighthouse is better as +1 sight is usefull on frigates. I do think it needs a boost though, perhaps replace the bonus for +15 xp for ships build anywhere in the empire?

 

[black213]

The Great Lighthouse + +1 movement and sight policy from Commerce as England is a great combination, a total of +4 movement for ships.