PQ Convention: Quebec Consititution, Citizenship and Referendum

[warpus]

Except they think they will get to keep all the Canadian ones.

If they ever want to separate I say we make them get all their own crap. Also, a sizeable chunk of our debt.

 

[say1988]

Why not have them take it all? They would be bankrupt soon enough anyways as the economically important areas promptly declare independence and rejoin Canada.

 

[tonberry]

So where do the Quebecois get this zany idea that they're somehow stuck in a foreign country? Is there some aspect to Quebec's history that leads them to believe that they're being held prisoner by the big mean Canadians? Was Quebec a free, thriving nation at some point until the Canadians moved in, slaughtered the natives, and colonized the country? I don't get it.

First of all, Quebecois are a conquered people. In 1763, the english gain control of the French americas. We try to revolt in 1837 but we lost. You could say that living under english isn't so bad. That's true, they didn't go mongol style on us, making a big pile of skull outside Montréal. In fact, when the american revolution started, they gave the french-canadian in Quebec everything they asked for fear that they would join the american. So over the years, the situation stay that way: english were in control but french people could prosper if they were smart enough. We were not equal but we were never threated like the black in the US or even the chinese immigrant of early 20th century. However, the fear of being assimilated grew as the percentage of french speaker in Canada went down.

Today, people talk about the losing battle of the french people outside Quebec. I disagree, it's not a losing battle, it's a battle that have been lost, long ago. Just to make a comparaison, the english minority in Quebec have access to many hospital, a pubic school system and 2 university in english. In Ontario, where the french minority is greater than the english minority of Quebec, they close the last french hospital years ago.

Will french be still the dominant language of Quebec in 10 years? Yes. In 50? Probably. In 100? Likely but it's getting less sure. The day french disappear in Quebec is the day my people die. I'm aware that alot of people actually wish that, see the comment from Amadeus, but the survival of our culture is something worth fighting for.

 

[SuperJay]

Thank you for the informative response, Tonberry! I appreciate it, that's gives some interesting insight into the Quebecois view of the situation.

 

[warpus]

Yeah that was very informative.

I was under a totally different impression. Here in Ontario everything is written in both French and English, even stuff that has the exact same translation. You go to Quebec - stuff is written in just French. That sort of stuff made me think that the Quebecois have it good and are complaining for no reason.

 

[tonberry]

Yeah that was very informative.

I was under a totally different impression. Here in Ontario everything is written in both French and English, even stuff that has the exact same translation. You go to Quebec - stuff is written in just French. That sort of stuff made me think that the Quebecois have it good and are complaining for no reason.

Everything might be written in both language but, in the end, it's only a legacy of Pierre Trudeau who had a dream of a Canada that would be bilingual coast to coast. Once you put a foot outside Quebec, and some part of New-Brunswick, the chance of getting service in french is the same as in Italia. It's a bit better on federal level but even there, the exception is common. I once needed to go to Canada embassy when I was aborad and was unable to be served in french. No big deal since I can speak english but what if it would have been my father?

The truth is that not everyone is at ease at learning a second language. I speak english because it serve my interest but most of my friends and family speak only french and I can't say that I live a more complete life than them.

So for them, it's hard to get in touch with the culture in english Canada. We do watch translated movie and tv show but all of them come from Hollywood. I've only learned recently that canadian use "eh" alot. This is what I mean when I say that we feel Canada is a foreign country is that I can't catch any cultural reference. A trip to Ontario is same as a trip to Vermont, except for passing the border.

I do however wish that the situation would be improved. The likely next prime minister of Quebec, Pauline Marois, don't speak french well and that make me cringe because it's show that's she's not very curious about politics in North America. Education should make sure that everyone in Quebec should at least be able to maintain a basic conversation in english.

But when you try to convice people of that, this happen: http://blog.fagstein.com/2011/04/14/epic-meal-time-on-tlmep/

For those interested, read the blog post until the end, it gave a good insigh of the view of an english-speaking quebecois who grew up in Montreal. It's an example on how unique Quebec situation is. I've lived in Vietnam for a while and there are chinese guettos over there but all those chinese speak vietnamiese. In Saigon's chinatown, I can get service in english or vietnamiese but I sometime can't get service in french in western Montreal.

As long as this situation persist, Quebec independance will be an living idea.

 

[Kerozine]

I'm hoping Francois Legault and his movement comes up with a viable alternative to Quebec's <snip> two-party politics.

Moderator Action: Watch your language, please.
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

 

[Zelig]

But you're not Québécois.

Doesn't matter, I'm not necessarily talking about myself.

Over 60% of the population of Québec self-identifies as being of Canadian origin. Source

Even if you assume 100% of the non-French population of Québec self-identifies as Canadian origin, this still leaves about 48% of French-speaking Québecers who self-identify as being of Canadian origin.

Also note that only 2% of the total population of Québec self-identifies as being of Québécois origin.

I guess if you're just referring to those 2% not thinking of themselves as Canadian, that's probably true.

 

[warpus]

Everything might be written in both language but, in the end, it's only a legacy of Pierre Trudeau who had a dream of a Canada that would be bilingual coast to coast. Once you put a foot outside Quebec, and some part of New-Brunswick, the chance of getting service in french is the same as in Italia. It's a bit better on federal level but even there, the exception is common. I once needed to go to Canada embassy when I was aborad and was unable to be served in french. No big deal since I can speak english but what if it would have been my father?

Aren't government employees mandated to speak English and French? I thought that was a requirement for most government positions (meaning ones where you have to interact with the public).

And I suppose my point was just that I have had to put up with French everywhere here and.. I go to Quebec and I see that similar requirements for English don't exist? It's no big deal, but when I was younger it irked me because I don't speak any French at all, having just moved to Canada in grade 7. My philosophy was "If I have to put up with this French crap, the people in Quebec should have to put up with English crap" It's only fair, right?

It's no big deal really, just something I noticed when I moved to Canada.

So for them, it's hard to get in touch with the culture in english Canada. We do watch translated movie and tv show but all of them come from Hollywood. I've only learned recently that canadian use "eh" alot. This is what I mean when I say that we feel Canada is a foreign country is that I can't catch any cultural reference. A trip to Ontario is same as a trip to Vermont, except for passing the border.

First of all the "eh" thing is a bit of a myth. That doesn't really happen that often.

Second of all, you're looking at it the wrong way. Look at it this way: Canada is a country made up of 10 provinces, 3 territories, and a whole bunch of ethnic groups. Quebec is just one of many.

Can I relate to life in the North West Territories, the atlantic coast, or Edmonton? Not really. Life is different in all those places and I don't view myself as an Albertan or Maritimer, or whatever the hell they call themselves. I'm not a fisherman, I am neutral towards seafood, I don't know what sort of life people live out east, I don't listen to great big sea, and I don't speak with a funny accent.

When you say: "I don't view myself as a Canadian" you are sort of really saying "I don't view myself as an Ontarian, or Albertan, or BC'er" or whatever. We're both in the same boat! Sure, Quebec is slightly different due to the language, and yes, it is different in terms of culture, but we have all sorts of different types of cultures all over the country. It's not like there is some sort of a unified anglophone culture that we all relate to and people from Quebec can't. The things tying us together in this country are pretty much hockey, bacon, and maple syrop - and all 3 of those apply to Quebec as well.

And heck, I don't view myself as Portugese-Canadian, but that doesn't mean that I'm not Canadian.

I am warpus.. and I am Canadian.

 

[emzie]

First of all, Quebecois are a conquered people. In 1763, the english gain control of the French americas. We try to revolt in 1837 but we lost. You could say that living under english isn't so bad. That's true, they didn't go mongol style on us, making a big pile of skull outside Montréal. In fact, when the american revolution started, they gave the french-canadian in Quebec everything they asked for fear that they would join the american. So over the years, the situation stay that way: english were in control but french people could prosper if they were smart enough. We were not equal but we were never threated like the black in the US or even the chinese immigrant of early 20th century. However, the fear of being assimilated grew as the percentage of french speaker in Canada went down.

Today, people talk about the losing battle of the french people outside Quebec. I disagree, it's not a losing battle, it's a battle that have been lost, long ago. Just to make a comparaison, the english minority in Quebec have access to many hospital, a pubic school system and 2 university in english. In Ontario, where the french minority is greater than the english minority of Quebec, they close the last french hospital years ago.

Will french be still the dominant language of Quebec in 10 years? Yes. In 50? Probably. In 100? Likely but it's getting less sure. The day french disappear in Quebec is the day my people die. I'm aware that alot of people actually wish that, see the comment from Amadeus, but the survival of our culture is something worth fighting for.

I absolutely agree that preserving Quebecois culture is a worthy goal, one I wholeheartedly support. But I maintain that the best manner in which to do that, is remaining within Canada, with a high level of autonomy.

From what I've observed, most quebecois in favour of leaving focus on things they'd like to protect, language and culture. No one really stops to think about the cost.

Everything might be written in both language but, in the end, it's only a legacy of Pierre Trudeau who had a dream of a Canada that would be bilingual coast to coast. Once you put a foot outside Quebec, and some part of New-Brunswick, the chance of getting service in french is the same as in Italia. It's a bit better on federal level but even there, the exception is common. I once needed to go to Canada embassy when I was aborad and was unable to be served in french. No big deal since I can speak english but what if it would have been my father?

The truth is that not everyone is at ease at learning a second language. I speak english because it serve my interest but most of my friends and family speak only french and I can't say that I live a more complete life than them.

So for them, it's hard to get in touch with the culture in english Canada. We do watch translated movie and tv show but all of them come from Hollywood. I've only learned recently that canadian use "eh" alot. This is what I mean when I say that we feel Canada is a foreign country is that I can't catch any cultural reference. A trip to Ontario is same as a trip to Vermont, except for passing the border.

I do however wish that the situation would be improved. The likely next prime minister of Quebec, Pauline Marois, don't speak french well and that make me cringe because it's show that's she's not very curious about politics in North America. Education should make sure that everyone in Quebec should at least be able to maintain a basic conversation in english.

But when you try to convice people of that, this happen: http://blog.fagstein.com/2011/04/14/epic-meal-time-on-tlmep/

For those interested, read the blog post until the end, it gave a good insigh of the view of an english-speaking quebecois who grew up in Montreal. It's an example on how unique Quebec situation is. I've lived in Vietnam for a while and there are chinese guettos over there but all those chinese speak vietnamiese. In Saigon's chinatown, I can get service in english or vietnamiese but I sometime can't get service in french in western Montreal.

As long as this situation persist, Quebec independance will be an living idea.

Having moved here from the US, yeah, Quebec has a different feel. Even the traffic lights change!

 

[pboily]

Today, people talk about the losing battle of the french people outside Quebec. I disagree, it's not a losing battle, it's a battle that have been lost, long ago. Just to make a comparaison, the english minority in Quebec have access to many hospital, a pubic school system and 2 university in english. In Ontario, where the french minority is greater than the english minority of Quebec, they close the last french hospital years ago.

Anecdotal nit-pick, because I agree with the overall sentiment of what you're saying: we have two bilingual universities (Laurentian/Laurentienne and Ottawa) where we can do all of our studies in French (at least, I did) and we still have a francophone hospital in the Montfort hospital.

But the Anglo-Quebecers are in a better situation than we are, that's for sure. Higher median salaries, more education, the works.

 

[emzie]

Anecdotal nit-pick, because I agree with the overall sentiment of what you're saying: we have two bilingual universities (Laurentian/Laurentienne and Ottawa) where we can do all of our studies in French (at least, I did) and we still have a francophone hospital in the Montfort hospital.

But the Anglo-Quebecers are in a better situation than we are, that's for sure. Higher median salaries, more education, the works.

Anglophones in Quebec are better off, sure, but is that really due to government policies / accommodation?

edit: history aside, of course. If you go back a few decades, the answer to that question would be yes.

 

[Abegweit]

The Québécois already slaughter the pronunciation of French themselves.

tru dat

 

[Abegweit]

Would the atlantic provinces eventually separate as well?

I would hope so. Preferably, each on its own. The best places to live in the world are all tiny countries.

Edit: My native country was stolen in 1873. You apparently are Canadian. Google my nick.

 

[Abegweit]

I've only learned recently that canadian use "eh" alot.

and Canadiens use "hein". It's the same word in both languages, just spelled differently, and I believe that the origin is French. Parisians look down on "hein" too. From what I know that's because it actually comes from Belgium, not France.

 

[warpus]

I would hope so. Preferably, each on its own. The best places to live in the world are all tiny countries.

Edit: My native country was stolen in 1873. You apparently are Canadian. Google my nick.

I was born in Poland, a country that struggled for its independence for quite a while. Having your country taken away and fighting to get it back is sort of deeply ingrained in our national psyche, so I can totally understand where you're coming from.

I've always felt bad about what happened to the natives, but.. I don't think there's a way for you guys to get your countries back (if you can call them that). As a bunch of smaller countries the provinces would have far less bargaining power around the world.. As a big country we don't have much - but at least we have a bit. I think it's a good idea for us to stick together.

 

[SuperJay]

Everything might be written in both language but, in the end, it's only a legacy of Pierre Trudeau who had a dream of a Canada that would be bilingual coast to coast. Once you put a foot outside Quebec, and some part of New-Brunswick, the chance of getting service in french is the same as in Italia. It's a bit better on federal level but even there, the exception is common. I once needed to go to Canada embassy when I was aborad and was unable to be served in french. No big deal since I can speak english but what if it would have been my father?

The truth is that not everyone is at ease at learning a second language. I speak english because it serve my interest but most of my friends and family speak only french and I can't say that I live a more complete life than them.

So for them, it's hard to get in touch with the culture in english Canada. We do watch translated movie and tv show but all of them come from Hollywood. I've only learned recently that canadian use "eh" alot. This is what I mean when I say that we feel Canada is a foreign country is that I can't catch any cultural reference. A trip to Ontario is same as a trip to Vermont, except for passing the border.

I do however wish that the situation would be improved.

This is interesting - what makes you expect that all of Canada from coast to coast should be bilingual simply because a small fraction of its population speaks French? I can understand the problem of feeling alienated within your own country, but from where I'm standing, it seems some of that isolation is self-induced on the part of Quebec.

And you're right, not everyone can or wants to learn a second language, but doesn't it seem a little odd to want the entire rest of the country to learn a second language so some Quebecois don't have to?

I hope this doesn't sound insensitive, but it just seems as though Quebec wants everyone else to change, but isn't willing to change itself. I have an admittedly uninformed perspective, though, so I appreciate you sharing your perspective.

 

[tonberry]

This is interesting - what makes you expect that all of Canada from coast to coast should be bilingual simply because a small fraction of its population speaks French? I can understand the problem of feeling alienated within your own country, but from where I'm standing, it seems some of that isolation is self-induced on the part of Quebec.

And you're right, not everyone can or wants to learn a second language, but doesn't it seem a little odd to want the entire rest of the country to learn a second language so some Quebecois don't have to?

I hope this doesn't sound insensitive, but it just seems as though Quebec wants everyone else to change, but isn't willing to change itself. I have an admittedly uninformed perspective, though, so I appreciate you sharing your perspective.

It's not insensitive, don't worry. To be honest, I'm much more cool about the situation that my posts seem to indicate .

I don't expect every canadian to learn 2 languages (altough that would be a nice goal since country like Switzerland manage to do it). The idea that Canada is bilingual coast to coast like Trudeau wanted it to be is an illusion. There is french on cereal box and on most federal building but nobody in it can speak it. I don't mind that, like I said I get by fine in english and canadian are charming people, less rude than québécois in general, I admit freely.

However this is how the country is presented, in it's brochure, in it's publicity. Politicians who want to seduce the french population of Quebec often remind us that there is french sign everywhere in the country. When my vietnamiese friends came to Canada, they were expecting to be able to speak french in Vancouver and Toronto because this is how the country is presented to them.

I wish the charade would end. There is no need to put french on a federal building in Alberta. If Vacouver and Toronto want to translate things, they should do it in Chinese rather than french. But it won't happen, because they know that if they stop to just pretending, independance movement would gain popularity around here. Petty politics but that's how it is.

 

[warpus]

I would love to speak French but I only arrived here in grade 7 and the French classes I took were a joke.

I got the highest mark in my grade 9 general French class, but I didn't learn A THING. I memorized how to conjugate verbs, that's it. Highest mark and NOTHING learned.

I'm not surprised that not too many people speak French here. I mean, sure, they start learning in grade 4 or whatever, but if the rest of the classes are as bad as the ones I took - it's not really that surprising.

I don't mind French on everything cause when I'm bored I'll try to read it and maybe learn a bit. What I find hilarious is when a product will write something in French and English even the translation is EXACTLY THE SAME. I can't think of an example cause I don't speak French, but.. if the translation is exactly the same you don't need to write both words on the box.. it's the same word! .. And to me that is the largest issue in franco-anglophone relations of this day.

 

[tonberry]

I would love to speak French but I only arrived here in grade 7 and the French classes I took were a joke.

I got the highest mark in my grade 9 general French class, but I didn't learn A THING. I memorized how to conjugate verbs, that's it. Highest mark and NOTHING learned.

I'm not surprised that not too many people speak French here. I mean, sure, they start learning in grade 4 or whatever, but if the rest of the classes are as bad as the ones I took - it's not really that surprising.

I don't mind French on everything cause when I'm bored I'll try to read it and maybe learn a bit. What I find hilarious is when a product will write something in French and English even the translation is EXACTLY THE SAME. I can't think of an example cause I don't speak French, but.. if the translation is exactly the same you don't need to write both words on the box.. it's the same word! .. And to me that is the largest issue in franco-anglophone relations of this day.

You can't really learn a language without living among a speaking population or consume cultural products of it. I had english courses since 4th grade but it's not before the end of high school that I really start to being able to say more than "Hello, thanks you, good bye". I did that not by being better during class but by starting to watch movie in english (first with french subtitles then with english ones), read book in english, watch tv and so on.