Pre-1AD Liberalism Rush Basics?

Henry.K

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Fellow fanatics!
I'm a Prince-level player looking to improve and saw a strategy I'd like to try out.
LeftAdjoint on YouTube posted a "Monarch Tutorial" and got Liberalism before 1 AD.
From what I saw he:

- Built cottages to boost science in his capitol
- Built a library ASAP to produce three great scientists
--- Used one for an academy in the capitol
--- Used two in order to bulb the last few techs needed
- Ran hereditary for the science+, caste for extra, and pacifism for the GP boost

Thing is, when I try and do the same, I don't even get close to 1 AD! :p


Is this a popular strategy that has an in-depth guide somewhere?
 

AcaMetis

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Shotgunning Lib for the free technology is indeed a very popular strategy, but something I'd like to note is that it's by no means the only one. It's very map dependant whether going for Lib is an optimal or even good strategy, and in any case remember that Lib is merely a means to an end - the free tech is used to get something that'll win you the game, Lib itself will very rarely do that. So even if you're able to get Lib pre 1 AD, if you can't capitalize on that advantage you'll still...well, probably not lose, but your victory might not be as elegant as the road you took to get there.

All that said if you're interested in improving your game setting a goal like this for yourself is an entirely valid way to track your progress, and knowing how to get the most out of your empire is good in any event. I'm afraid I don't know of any specific guides, so unless others know of any I think posting a shadow game and having forum veterans guide you through the process is probably your best bet. You might end up with a map that's not really suited for a pre 1 AD lib game, but on Prince I'm sure any vaguely reasonable map should allow you to pull it off regardless.
 

konata_LS

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Do you mean the tutorial playing as Washington?

That video showed some basic concepts about empire management. But the video you mentioned was played with Huts on, and the player popped The Wheel from a tribal village. Most of us here play without tribal villages.

Like @ AcaMetis said in #2, the tech you grab with Lib should be something which helps you win the game.
For example, if you plan a Cuirs rush, then grab Naionalism or Military Tradition with Lib would be your goal. If you have no Horse but Iron and decide to attack with Cannons, then Lib Chemistry or Steel is much more useful than Nationalism. If you play a Continents map, to take Astronomy with Lib becomes tempting, because intercontinental trade routes give you a huge :commerce: boost.

"Lib a tech irrelevent to your victory, only for the early Lib date" is often not worth it.

In comparison, sometimes you delay Lib for a while but grab a more expensive tech with Lib. In such cases, Lib after 500 AD or 1000 AD is nice. One example is taking Rifling with Lib in 1040AD , another example is lib Steel before 800AD .Both examples are from experienced Deity players. Why did they take Rifling or Steel with Lib? Because Rifling or Steel fitted their victory plans.
 
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Gumbolt

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You would have to get a tech worth more than Lib tech to really add value. Plus if you can get lib secure why not aim for a 4-8k tech instead? Of course taking Lib at least denies the Ai the tech.

Of course if your taking lib at 1ad to get MT for cuirs that is nice and early. With AI tech speed on Prince that seems unlikely unless you have actually crushed map and have a huge empire. Hmmm.
 
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Heathcliff

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1 AD Lib is not normal.
You are a very good player if you can do that. A normal lib date is around 800-1200 AD.
 

Gumbolt

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1 AD Lib is not normal.
You are a very good player if you can do that. A normal lib date is around 800-1200 AD.

He is playing prince so science would be a bit quicker than Monarch. Albeit I doubt you would get many useful trades from the AI tech wise. You could go theo/paper and bulb edu/lib. If he means this stream he took nationalism at 275ad from lib. Which is not ideal as the AI were 100+ turns from liberalism. Could of taken steel or a 7k tech if he left it longer. He only took nationalism as he had no intention to play further.

This was video 8/8. You can find the rest. Assuming right video.

Oracle could also be used for CS too as an alternative strategy.

I think the thing to take from the video was how he built up empire and set up a bureau capital.
 

Gumbolt

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You could also look at this thread. Noble Marathan space race where Lib went 250bc and he took communism. This took advantage of fact some AI capital cities with 3 food tiles on Noble have no defenders until 9th turn once it has grown. So you can just walk in and wipe them out. This would not be possible on prince or monarch where ai start with free units. Think the timing would be different for marathan speed.
https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/noble-marathon-space-attempt.671443/

Be interested to see you do 1ad lib with normal settings on prince. It could well be possible on the right start with a philosophical leader.
 

Fippy

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With the right AIs Deity works best, can get lots of trades with bigger AIs.
Here you basically skip techs that you can trade for with currency being a prominent example, while getting COL yourself (not many AIs go there after Reli has gone) and go Caste to start on serious GP generation for bulbs.
 

pigswill

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I agree with the posters who argue that it can be done but if its not part of a victory strategy then its a pointless exercise.
 

Henry.K

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I understand what you folks are saying; getting a quick Liberalism doesn't do much unless it's part of an overall plan.
I was just surprised such a tech could be had so quickly!

Always had a mental block in pulling citizens off tiles and into the library for GS generation though...
For some reason it always seemed more important to grow the city, or get hammers with e'm.

After you use your first great scientist to build an academy in the capitol, what are some common bulb paths/options for the next few?
...or, is it wise to build academies in other cities?
 

Gumbolt

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Philosophy, education and lib to rush lib. 2xedu and lib more important. Pends what strategy is. Usually i do it for cuirs once i have a decent empire. Most GS generation comes from golden ages. Top players will get early gs in. You do need a GP for first golden age.

If you skip gunpowder you can bulb far down electricity line. Of course you still need a plan.

Not done multiple academies as i tend to find the capital is usually your main science base. Grow this with helper cities for cottages and a size 12-13+ capital soon becomes a commerce centre with bureau civic.
 

drewisfat

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It should be noted that using your first GS for an academy is *not* the standard play as it will generally slow down getting Lib. It makes sense with some combination of a very commerce rich capital, Philosophical, and a game expected to go much later than Lib (non-pangaea, space race, etc.)
 

Gumbolt

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You would need 20-30 beakers a turn from an academy if your going early lib.Without CS that seems unlikely. That would take 50-70 turns to pay off assuming you can even run 100% science a turn which is unlikely. On a decdent size empire a bulb could be getting 1900-200 beakers with 100-150 pop. 1500+3x150=1950 beakers.

If you are playing the long game academies can really pay off. If your just racing to cuirs I agree unlikely. Pends on map and other things. Maybe more advantage for a financial leader due to cottage bonus. Trade routes can also be a great source of commerce with astronomy and this would help any academy. Especially with a big size 16-20 capital.
 

Henry.K

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I see people mention cuirs quite often - is that generally regarded as a powerful timing attack?
 

lymond

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I see people mention cuirs quite often - is that generally regarded as a powerful timing attack?
Yep...especially on high levels.
 

Gumbolt

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Cuirs is spammed and whipped on immortal can over run entire map. Eventually with either 3-4 ai destroyed or 6 vassal. On deity you have to stagger wars as ai tech so much quicker. Fact is cuirs with C2 vs pike or longbow still get 20-30% odds attacking cities for first defenders. If you get a decent military pump city with right civics and generals added to city you could have 17xp cuirs pumped out. Nothing will beat these in open play.
 

Donald Duck1

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It should be noted that using your first GS for an academy is *not* the standard play as it will generally slow down getting Lib. It makes sense with some combination of a very commerce rich capital, Philosophical, and a game expected to go much later than Lib (non-pangaea, space race, etc.)
I never really thought about this, but what would be the superior strategy? With Hatshepsut (cheap libraries) I usually use the 1st GS for academy, 2nd for philo, 3rd and 4th for paper/edu, and 5th for lib. I understand the early academy does not give a huge boost immediately, as the capitol only generates like ~25 commerce at that time, but what would be the alternative? Delay academy until after philo? Bulb math instead of paper?
 
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Alternatively with that many GS's in play for a given map, you could consider lib'ing steel instead, throwing an extra bulb into chemistry.
 
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