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Pre-ChaNES: Into the Void

Discussion in 'Never Ending Stories' started by Chandrasekhar, Dec 16, 2007.

  1. Chandrasekhar

    Chandrasekhar Determined

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    Correct, just like 111 years of nuclear research haven't gotten us a useful fusion reactor. Keep in mind that while the world of 46 years ago wasn't as advanced as today, it wasn't exactly backwards either. Even factoring in the accelerating nature of technological progress, some things simply cannot be expected to happen by the year 2053. Sci-Fi has a bad habit of overestimating technological progress, but I'd like to avoid that pitfall as much as I can.
    I'll educate myself on the subject of Indonesia some more, but the simple fact is that gains made by conquest tend to not be as useful as gains made by diplomacy. I'm not so much saying that you "can't" take Indonesia by force, but rather that such a conquest wouldn't make your nation that much more powerful on the international stage.
     
  2. Demetrias

    Demetrias Emperor

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    I just remember hearing every couple of years about a rebellion or Terroism or military coupe de tats coming out of their.

    Scientist have already mapped the human genome, clone animals, and messed around with the genetic material of viruses. I don't think it to unreasonable to assume genetic modification of humans or animals is to far away. I also though the problem with fusion reactors was they were to hot not that we couldn't make one.

    If I can't have moreaus can I have proto-types and develop them fully next turn?
     
  3. Chandrasekhar

    Chandrasekhar Determined

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    In that case, perhaps it's not the most useful territory to hold. ;)
    Oh, I'd say that limited genetic modification is inevitable by the year 2053, though I doubt it'll be flashy awesome stuff like intelligent canines. Reduction of genetic disease and such would probably be the manifestation of that.

    And as to the fusion reactors, note that I did say useful ones were beyond us.
    Well, I'd say that it's not a stretch at all to have Australia be far ahead of the pack in biological research and such - that's the sort of thing that I can directly incorporate into the stats, after all. I can't guarantee that you'll have fully intelligent Moreaus next turn or indeed the turn after that, but I'll be sure to award you the fruits of your technological specialization.
     
  4. North King

    North King blech

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    There is no way modern day Australia would be able to conquer Indonesia. Defeat it, yes, but conquer it, no. Trying to occupy a nation with nearly 12 times the population of the occupier is insanity, especially when the occupied nation has so many secluded areas to hide away in.
     
  5. Demetrias

    Demetrias Emperor

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    See whole post about 20 years of war constant rebellions, not controlling Borneo and genetically enhanced super soldiers. Maybe that will change your mind.

    Also add in the Population of New Zealand and Taiwan.
     
  6. North King

    North King blech

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    Indonesia would currently have around 2.5 times the population of those three combined states, and given population growth trends, I'd expect them to have far more than that in the 2050s. Moreover, if Australia had made a move towards Taiwan, even if China didn't nuke them, the PRC would be incredibly hostile to Australia, so you could expect considerable financial and military support. Moreover, attacking Indonesia even with more troops is a logistical nightmare even in the best of circumstances: thousands of islands, thousands of coves for guerrillas to hide away in, a hostile populace...

    Add onto that that you'd have the entire Muslim world up in arms, which given the global reach of terrorists is not to be sneered at... You'd also have the entire civilized world pissed at you for attacking in a completely unjustified war... You'd be coming dangerously close to threatening India's sphere of influence...

    All in all, it would be an incredibly stupid move to make.
     
  7. Symphony D.

    Symphony D. Deity

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    Alright, I'm going to break my word: Australia would have a hard time supporting 30 million people, and will never, ever, with domestic sustainability, reach even 50 million. Taiwan and New Zealand's piddly 22 and 4 million (neither of which can grow much either) punch the total assembly's possible value up to around 47 million... versus Indonesia's 234 million. Indonesia will vastly outpace any of the other three in population growth to boot, so don't try using a time argument.

    It won't be that you'll have rebellions, it'll be that you will lose. Ignoring the population disparity, and the huge terrain disadvantage, Indonesia is also overwhelmingly Muslim, and we all know about the current culture clash.

    Also: genetic supersoldiers? You are kidding. Genetically engineered crops and stem cell research are bad enough politically. Uplifting non-sapient creatures to the capability of humans in warfighting and then deploying them against an enemy would have whatever politicians sanctioned it shot by religious or environmental extremists and the survivors alienated from the public (in addition to being an overtly hostile move by a democratic country), That's not even getting into the fact it'd be difficult at best, and even if it were possible, it'd be uneconomical, because people are cheaper and robots are easier.
     
  8. Demetrias

    Demetrias Emperor

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    ANZIT
    Leader: Prime Minister Edward Wilson, (Demetrias)
    Capital: Canberra
    Government: Parliamentary Democracy
    Technology: In the year 2053 Australian biotechnological companies are the best in the world. Genetic engineering is the top priority in Australia which focuses on curing genetic disease and developing vaccines for the deadliest viruses. Recently Scientist have begun experimenting with genetic modification using Dogs. Military spending in these projects resulted in Australia being the leading supplier of prescription drugs in the world. Also Australian Scientist managed to develop gene therapy treatments for many genetic disorders and can even cure some types of cancer. Australian industry is heavily mechanized using many new types of machines developed in Japan, Taiwan and America. Long time trading partners and Allies. Many software companies have moved to Australia due to government incentives.
    Army Stats: Most of the fighting vehicles consits of high spead troop transports and exo-armour suits. These suits provide troops with the same protection a tank would but allowing considerably more manuverablity.
    Army Description: Australian military is designed to fight urban wars. The army is designed around fast attack squads wearing exo-armour. They are designed to fight guerillas and long term occupations. Modern warfare between develop nations many being fought in the air. Australia desided to focus on holding territory gained. The airforce uses fighters developed by SAAB who moved their headquaters to Australia after being force out of the early EU markets by American and English built planes. The fighters are mainly hypersonic jets built as missile platforms and strategic stealth bombers.
    Navy Stats: Australia fields a medium sized navy built on Missile Cruisers and Frigates. Also a small sub force.
    Navy Description: The missile cruisers are advanced missile platform tied into a GPS system of almost unrivaled excellence and excellent radar capabilities. These ships are design to shoot down enemy missiles and fighter jets. The missiles themselves have the most advanced guidance system possible and travel at hypersonic speeds.
    Total Economy: The economy is one of the top ten in the world.
    Planets Occupied: Earth, though petitioning the UN for the right to build its own space station independent of the UN, USA, Russia or the EU.
    Avg. Infrastructure: Excellent
    Control: Limited
    Total Population: 75 million
    Military Cap: <Divisions>
    Education: Excellent
    Avg. Safety & Health: Excellent
    Avg. Patriotism: Average in A, NZ and the Indonesia Dependancies
    Projects: <Name, Effect, and Progress>
    History: In 2012 Australia and New Zealand united to become one country in an effort to boost their economy and compete on the world stage as one of the players in the World.
     
  9. Demetrias

    Demetrias Emperor

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    First off I did say they started it, second I said twenty years to conquer it, not about my population being bigger just takes longer. Also you may notice that Iraqs population vastly outnumbers the US army but we still occupy the country.
    Technological superiority could win you the war early on. Also if you read the rest of the post the army was design for urban and guerilla warfare because of the problems in occupying any country not matter its size or economic ability. Its also a politically unstable country therefore it would all be fighting at the same time. They might unify against an outside force but then again they might not. It might me majority muslim but that has its own problems as the minorities rise up in rebellion against the muslims and vice versa.
     
  10. flyingchicken

    flyingchicken Deity

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    I don't get doggie super-soldiers. What's the point?

    Also, why would the Indonesians want to join up with you (barring the possibility of mass-murder)?
     
  11. Demetrias

    Demetrias Emperor

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    before everybody gangs up on another one of my Ideas can I have under water cities and hydroponic farms?
     
  12. Demetrias

    Demetrias Emperor

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    Because their cool and they didn't join we fought a war and I won.
     
  13. flyingchicken

    flyingchicken Deity

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    But...isn't this supposed to be a serious NES? (on doggie soldiers)

    And you fought a war and won. I should rephrase the question: why conquer?
     
  14. Demetrias

    Demetrias Emperor

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    I don't know about how serious it is supposed to be but it is supposed to be futuristic so it can't be all that literal and exact a lot will be left up to the imagination. Also why not conquer it. It would give my nation more population and resources which are things a nation needs.

    P.S. I rewrote the entry. See new post. I might have to delete the old one though.
     
  15. North King

    North King blech

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    I'm going to number this to keep easier track of.

    1) Why on Earth would Indonesia start a war with Australia? They have nothing to win, and enough to lose to make it stupid. They have very little in the way of power projection, and can't possibly fight an effective war on Australia's mainland.

    2) Twenty years really doesn't mean anything, unless you spend those twenty committing genocide (something I guarantee no Australian government would ever do). You still have over two hundred million people wanting you to get out.

    3) The United States has 300,000,000 people behind its military. This allows them to support 120,000 soldiers fairly effectively, and this is a pretty good size for controlling a half-hostile nation of 30,000,000. Australia, however, probably has the capability to support about one tenth of that, and if we add in Taiwan and New Zealand, we come up with a whopping total of about 20,000 soldiers stationed abroad without putting serious strain on the economy. 20,000 soldiers against 200,000,000. That's a ratio of 1:10,000, whereas the USA in Iraq is somewhere around 1:250. Even assuming much higher technology, 1:10,000 is simply not enough to keep an eye on everyone. Factor in the likely supplies coming in from China, Malaysia, possibly even India, plus dozens of terrorist organizations, and international pressure to withdraw... there's no way Australia can hold onto that.

    4) I don't dispute that Australia could easily win the initial war. Their blue water navy even now could blow Indonesia's out of the water. However, no matter how highly trained your troops, and how awesome your powered armor, you're going to have a hellish time patrolling the island of Java, which has a population density of around 1,000 per square kilometer, and where even if you put your entire occupation force on that single isle, you'd have one soldier for every six square kilometers. Then you have the islands of Sumatra, Sulawesi, Borneo, etc., each of which has virtually uncharted jungle as the primary topography. You'd have soldiers slogging through rainforest conditions in search of phantom enemies: your soldiers would roast in their armor, and if you air-conditioned the suits, you'd have an even bigger logistical nightmare with power supply than you would with simply food and water -- which is already bad enough.

    5) No, they would be united against you, period. 86% of the population are Muslim, and Australia is a Christian nation. The ethnicities are different, the living conditions are different... it would be the classic colonial domination, and most people don't like that.

    6) The minorities are insignificant: 10% of the population, and most of those are on individual islands.

    EDIT:

    7) How in the heck is conquering Indonesia going to do anything for you? On top of trying to hold down around 200-300 million people, you'd have to industrialize it to make it of any use, and that would take a huge investment in the infrastructure. Otherwise it's nothing more than a glorified colony, which at best will only supply you raw material. The soldiers you'd get out of it would be unmotivated and probably disloyal. There would be no point to it.
     
  16. Chandrasekhar

    Chandrasekhar Determined

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    These stats seem fine to me, though of course it would be appreciated if you worked out a more detailed history with your fellow players. An Oceanan union, even with a high technology level and solid stats, will still be very much the underdog, however.
    Just to clarify, I do want this NES to be as realistic as possible in most of its aspects. Of course, I have to introduce some blatantly sci-fi elements to make quick interstellar travel possible, but that doesn't invalidate the concept of "realism" as a whole.

    To all: Perhaps you should expand some more on your space programs. Not that I want to unduly nudge you in one direction or the other, of course. ;)
     
  17. alex994

    alex994 Hail Divine Emperor!

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    On a second thought, I don't have time to fully participate as a super-power. Though rest assured, I do plan to take on a more minor role later on.

    And Symphony, I have faith in Hillary Clinton. Gold Bless her rotten soul! ;) We merely have ah... differing opinions on the future of the United States, blame the liberal behind the pragmatic soul :p
     
  18. Chandrasekhar

    Chandrasekhar Determined

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    In that case... North King is next up on the waiting list. Hey, it looks like he gets China after all, assuming he accepts. :p I'll wait until then to officially put him on the roster, however.
     
  19. Symphony D.

    Symphony D. Deity

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    Decloak: You have faith in her to not continue the very programs her husband developed while she stood around trying to fix healthcare and failed miserably, like she's failing in this pre-election? Hillary Clinton's much touted "experience" is the very reason she can't afford to do much. Silly alex, expecting American military R&D spending to go away is like expecting a Sinophile to acknowledge that China isn't the best at anything. :p
     
  20. alex994

    alex994 Hail Divine Emperor!

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    I've merely come to the conclusion that I dislike every single one of the major presidential candidate and that they have the chance of reversing the massive and outrageously large spending on American military R&D as much as a man can stop a train with his bare hands :p
     

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